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House of Commons
Thursday 9 December 1993
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
British Waterways Bill
[Lords]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Promoters of the British Waterways Bill [Lords] may, notwithstanding anything in the Standing Orders or practice of this House, proceed with the Bill in the present Session and the Petition for the Bill shall be deemed to have been deposited and all Standing Orders applicable thereto shall be deemed to have been complied with ;
That, if the Bill is brought from the Lords in the present Session, the Agent for the Bill shall deposit in the Private Bill Office a declaration signed by him, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill which was brought from the Lords in the last Session ;
That as soon as a certificate by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office, that such a declaration has been so deposited, has been laid upon the Table of the House, the Bill shall be deemed to have been read for the first and second time and committed (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read and committed) ;
That all Petitions relating to the Bill presented in the last Session which stand referred to the Committee on the Bill, together with any minutes of evidence taken before the Committee on the Bill, shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the present session ;
That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on the Bill, unless their Petition has been presented within the time limited within the last Session or deposited pursuant to paragraph (b) of Standing Order 126 relating to Private Business ;
That, in relation to the Bill, Standing Order 127 relating to Private Business shall have effect as if the words "under Standing Order 126 (Reference to committee of petitions against Bill)" were omitted ;
That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the last Session.
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Oral Answers to Questions
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
Battery Farms
1. Mrs. Jane Kennedy : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if she will make a statement on the welfare of chickens in battery farms.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Nicholas Soames) : The Commission has been reviewing the battery hens directive. We await its proposals for a revision of the directive and for new standards for other systems. The Government wish to see the highest welfare standards set on a Community basis for laying hens in all systems of production.
Mrs. Kennedy : Is the Minister aware that it is illegal to keep birds in cages that are too small to allow them to spread their wings? The only exception to that law involves battery chickens. Does he agree that battery chickens deserve the same protection from cruelty as other birds? As part of his review, will he consider extending the provisions of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 accordingly?
Mr. Soames : The hon. Lady raises a very important point. The Government's position is plain : we wish to see the highest welfare standards set on a Community basis. We will not take unilateral action because to do so would place our egg producers at a great disadvantage. We are conscious of the need to improve the general welfare standards of battery chickens and will bear the hon. Lady's point in mind.
Mr. Clifton-Brown : My hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend are making considerable efforts to get a Europewide agreement on animal welfare, particularly in regard to battery hens. Does he agree that it would be absolute folly for our domestic markets if we were to take unilateral action?
Mr. Soames : My hon. Friend is completely right. My right hon. Friend has no intention of doing such a thing. We have made it plain that improvements to the systems must be on a Europewide basis, thereby not disadvantaging producers, who have been under a great deal of pressure and have had difficulties for many years. We will do all that we can to help the egg production systems of this country and, at the same time, improve the welfare of battery hens.
Mr. Pickthall : Does the Minister agree with the egg producers in my constituency who say that they will be put out of business if they are forced to implement the Welfare of Battery Hens Regulations 1987, which come into force next year, unless they contain a certain amount of flexibility? They will be forced into massive capital expenditure to make the relatively small changes to the floors of battery cages which many of their European competitors have already made. That would put our farmers at a disadvantage.
Mr. Soames : The hon. Gentleman is correct. We will issue guidance to the industry on the implementation of the
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Welfare of Battery Hens Regulations 1987. As the hon. Gentleman rightly says, they will come fully into force on 1 January next year. I can assure the hon. Gentleman--and I hope that he will assure his egg farmers--that those rules and regulations will be enforced in a sensible, pragmatic and consistent manner. If he has any reason to complain, he should get in touch with me at once.Pest Control
2. Mr. Riddick : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps are being taken to secure safe, efficient and humane methods of pest control.
Mr. Soames : Responsibility for pest control lies with individual landowners and occupiers, who are free to use any legal method of control, including shooting, approved pesticides and traps.
Mr. Riddick : Does my hon. Friend agree that, from a conservation point of view, it is very important to control vermin in the countryside? Does he agree that one of the most effective and least cruel ways of controlling the fox population is hunting foxes with hounds--and does he agree that, from a national point of view, one of the most effective ways of controlling the pest population is ensuring that we have as few Labour Members as possible in the House of Commons?
Mr. Soames : My hon. Friend has made an important and serious point. The control of pests and vermin in the countryside is indeed very important. It is not good enough to turn a blind eye and allow vocal minority groups to try to force unsatisfactory practices on the countryside.
As my hon. Friend knows, the Government remain neutral on fox hunting. For my own part, however, I whole heartedly agree with what he has said : hunting plays a very important part in the life of the countryside and the whole nation would be irreparably the worse without it.
Mrs. Anne Campbell : Has the Minister had any discussions with his colleagues in the Department of the Environment about the cost of eliminating pesticides from the water supply? Does he think it right for that cost to continue to fall on the water rate payers, rather than on the polluters?
Mr. Soames : That is really a question for my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Department of the Environment. The hon. Lady may be assured, however, that we work very closely with the Department on such matters. As she knows, Government policy is that the use of pesticides should be limited to the absolute minimum that is necessary for effective use--for the effective control of pests, compatible with the protection of human health and the environment. We feel that arbitrary reduction targets would not be helpful. I assure the hon. Lady that I will mention what she has said to my colleagues in the Department of the Environment.
Fishing, Thames Estuary
3. Mr. Whittingdale : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what representations she has received about the allocation of fishing quotas to fishermen in the Thames estuary ; and if she will make a statement.
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Michael Jack) : Officials meet industry representatives on a regular basis to discuss the monthly quota management arrangements for white fish stocks. We are aware of the concern about availability of North sea cod in the Thames estuary and of my hon. Friend's constituents' concerns about the very tight monthly catch restrictions for North sea sole.
Mr. Whittingdale : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his answer. Is he aware that fishermen in the Thames estuary--for instance, those operating from Mersea island in my constituency--have been allocated a quota for sole of about 100 kg a month, which yields about £200? The cost of maintaining a boat may approach £2,000 a month. Does my hon. Friend accept that quotas of that size make fishing almost unviable for my constituents? Will he consider whether they can be given any help and, in particular, will he consider establishing a separate quota for the Thames estuary?
Mr. Jack : My hon. Friend is indeed a friend to the fishermen in raising that point, but I feel that his question goes to the heart of a wider issue--the overall problem, in all Community waters, of the current pressure on our white fish stocks. I am well aware of that problem, but, as my hon. Friend will know, our efforts to secure a year-round fishery in his area for both sole and cod have meant evening out the availability of those species throughout the year. The view was taken that it was better to allow some fishermen to catch sole all year round and retain seasonal fisheries than not to allow them to fish at all ; however, I note what my hon. Friend has said and will bear it in mind in the coming negotiations.
Horticultural Products
4. Mr. Pickles : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps are being taken to improve the marketing of British horticultural products.
Mr. Jack : Help to improve the marketing of British horticultural produce will come from the new marketing development grant and a study that my right hon. Friend has asked me to undertake of ways in which the sector's performance can be strengthened.
Mr. Pickles : I am obliged to my hon. Friend for his reply. Is he aware that growers of broadleaf and salad vegetables in my constituency are gravely concerned about the proposed EC directives on nitrates? Is he aware that, given the preponderance of vegetables grown under glass--in my constituency and throughout the country--the viability of the industry is threatened? The proposed directive is not really based on scientific justification and smacks of anti-competitive practice. What measures is my hon. Friend taking to protect British growers?
Mr. Jack : I thank my hon. Friend for making that point--he does a service to the glasshouse industry. As he may know, before I came to the House I was involved in the fresh produce industry and therefore fully appreciate the seriousness of what he says. Our officials have been working extremely hard in their discussions in Europe to try to ensure that the United Kingdom's view on the way in which the directive affects our glasshouse growers prevails. We are currently without support on that matter,
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but we take my hon. Friend's point so seriously that my right hon. Friend the Minister plans to raise it in the next Agriculture CouncilMr. Ashton : Is the Minister aware that the marketing of horticultural products took a severe knock with last night's vote in the House and that thousands of greengrocer shops that have been opening on Sunday mornings will now find that the competition from Tesco and Sainsbury will force them to shut every Sunday? The Conservative party is supposed to be the party of small business men, yet it was predominantly its vote last night that will shut those greengrocer shops, especially on Sundays.
Mr. Jack : What the hon. Gentleman says is an insult to the small specialist greengrocers, who, with their expertise and knowledge of markets and different varieties, serve, whether six or seven days a week, with tremendous professionalism, those who buy vegetables and salads. Long may they continue to trade in that way.
Mr. Paice : Does my hon. Friend agree that effective marketing of horticultural produce requires markets to be as open as possible? In that light, has any progress been made on the agricultural and horticultural aspects of the GATT negotiations? Will he and our right hon. Friend the Minister make absolutely sure that no special interest groups in other countries are allowed to get in the way of a satisfactory settlement?
Mr. Jack : My hon. Friend knows that many members of the Government have, in their own way, been working extremely hard to help to secure a general agreement on tariffs and trade. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister will make her contribution to that next week.
Animal Transportation
5. Dr. Lynne Jones : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what plans she has to improve the welfare of animals transported from the United Kingdom to the rest of the EC.
Mr. Soames : We have maintained strict national controls to safeguard the welfare of animals during transport both within this country and for export. Further detailed Community rules are being discussed and we are pressing for our own very high standards to be adopted.
Dr. Jones : Does the Minister agree that the export of livestock for slaughter is completely unnecessary and causes immense suffering to the animals concerned? Even if the Minister is not able to ban all such exports, should not she be taking immediate action to ban the export of sheep to Spain until we have a guarantee and are completely satisfied that the Spanish have stopped their appalling slaughterhouse practices, such as stabbing fully conscious animals with screwdrivers and short-bladed knives, as was recently revealed by the RSPCA?
Mr. Soames : The hon. Lady makes an important point. Plainly, the practices that were shown on the RSPCA video from Spain are completely unacceptable. My right hon. Friend has mentioned those matters not only to the Spanish Agriculture Minister but to the Farm Commissioner in Brussels. Banning the export of sheep to Spain is not possible under the single market agreement. As the hon. Lady knows, we did not allow animals to go to Spain for slaughter before 1 January this year. We have an agreement
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with the Spanish authorities on a chief vet to chief vet basis that our animals will go only to plants that are known to be fully approved to EC standards. I assure the hon. Lady that no animals go to any plant of the type that was shown in the RSPCA video.Sir Jerry Wiggin : I hope that I can assume that my hon. Friend has read the comprehensive and unanimous report on that subject by the all- party Select Committee on Agriculture. Will he bear in mind two important factors : first, that it is in no one's interest to take live animals any further than is absolutely necessary and, secondly, that it is particularly in the interests of the owners of those animals to ensure that they arrive in good condition? That is a crucial factor in considering all those matters.
Mr. Soames : My hon. Friend is right and his Select Committee made those points clear in its admirable report. This involves not only a humanitarian and ethical issue, which the British people instinctively and rightly wish to support, but the perfectly proper commercial consideration that if animals are improperly and inhumanely treated on their way to slaughter, they will not be in a fit state to be slaughtered when they get there, to the commercial disadvantage of those who wish to sell that meat. We have written to all those involved in the transport of animals reminding them of those important obligations. I assure my hon. Friend, his Committee and the House that at the Agriculture Council in Brussels next week my right hon. Friend the Minister will be fighting for a proper, honourable and sensible programme, which can be enforced, for the welfare of animals travelling here and on the continent.
Mr. Morley : The Opposition support the Minister's representations to the Spanish on those despicable practices, but did not the former Minister of Agriculture, the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), give an assurance that British livestock would be sent to only 68 of the best Spanish slaughterhouses--an assurance which was broken in that it was changed to EC-approved slaughterhouses? Is not it also true that, despite the Minister's assurances, there is no way of knowing to which plants in Spain livestock is going?
The Government have rightly agreed a derogation for horses from Britain going for slaughter, thus establishing the principle that the EC regulations can be changed. Does the Minister agree that it is unacceptable that animals from Britain can travel for as long as 60 hours simply to go to a slaughterhouse in Spain?
Mr. Soames : The hon. Gentleman and I had a good long canter round this course in Committee yesterday and he knows perfectly well that the Government take these matters extremely seriously. We have full confidence in the arrangements that have been made between Her Majesty's Government and the Spanish Government on the basis of chief vet to chief vet. After the RSPCA video, we took immediate steps to ensure that all the guarantees given to the Government by the Spanish chief vet were still in place and would remain in place, and we are confident that that is the case.
I completely agree that the unsupervised and unregulated transport of animals is unacceptable, but the hon. Gentleman must understand that it is no good parroting on as if the British Government were at fault. The problems occur not in Britain but in Spain, Greece, France
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and elsewhere on the continent, and it is to continental Governments that the hon. Gentleman should make known his strictures. We know exactly where we have to go and how to get there, but we must take our European partners with us in order to ensure proper enforcement of the rules, without which they are nothing.Mr. Bellingham : Not so long ago, the Minister told the House that if animals were fit enough to travel, they should travel. Most hon. Members will agree with that, but is my hon. Friend aware that on many journeys animals are not properly watered or fed or given proper rests? Would not it make sense to have a compulsory rest period every eight hours or so?
Mr. Soames : My hon. Friend is right. He is well informed on these matters, so I am sure that he knows the state of play in the negotiations, which are very much concerned with rest periods and journey times. However, those matters must be part of a package. No rules are worth the paper that they are written on unless the countries that are party to the agreement are prepared to enforce, on a proper and decent basis, all the rules to which they have signed up. When we achieve that, we shall have secured a real improvement in the standards of animal welfare, which everyone in Britain rightly wants to see.
Farm Incomes
6. Ms Eagle : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the average farm income for mostly sheep producers in the severely disadvantaged areas of (a) England and (b) Wales.
The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mrs. Gillian Shephard) : Details of incomes for specialist sheep produces in the severely disadvantaged areas of England and Wales are contained in the 1993 autumn review of the economic conditions in the hills and uplands, a copy of which is in the House Library.
Ms Eagle : Is the Minister aware that 57 per cent. of mostly sheep farmers in less-favoured areas in England, and 47 per cent. in similar areas in Wales, had to exist last year on an average income of less than £10,000? Does the Minister think that that is an adequate living for farmers who have a difficult job to do trying to farm in areas that are particularly difficult to turn into productive profit?
Mrs. Shephard : Of course, I recogise the importance in economic, social and environmental terms of farming in the hills. I remind the hon. Lady that the details of farm incomes were agreed by the farm unions. This year, we simply could not ignore the evidence of a rise in farm incomes of about 41 per cent. in England and 55 per cent.--admittedly on a lower base- -in Wales. Also, although hill livestock compensatory allowances have been reduced by £25 million as a result of the public expenditure survey round, income from other sources to people who farm in the hills has increased by £100 million. That is not the sort of evidence which one can ignore when considering those arrangements.
Mr. John Greenway : Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the reasons why the income of sheep farmers in severely disadvantaged areas such as the North Yorkshire moors national park has risen over the past years is the 30 per cent. increase in the export of sheep to the continent?
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Is not it hypocritical of hon. Members to argue in one breath that we should provide more money for hill farmers and in the next breath say that we should cut off the very source of that increase in income by banning the export of live animals?Mrs. Shephard : My hon. Friend makes a good point because he knows the way in which farming works in his constituency. It is right that sheep farmers have benefited from the devaluation of the green pound, not only in terms of exports, but because the devaluation has increased the value of the support payments that they get by almost 16 per cent.
Mr. Beith : Is not the Minister using the one-off devaluation of the green pound to justify a severe reduction in the incomes of hill farms that are at the margin of viability? Is that to be the pattern for future years, or will the Minister seriously consider the future incomes of hill farmers and the danger to the whole conservation and life of hill areas if those farms go to the wall?
Mrs. Shephard : HLCAs continue to play a vital part in the viability of hill farms and incomes of hill farmers. As I have already explained, this year we could not ignore rising national incomes, which were agreed by the farming unions. Those aspects are looked at year on year and trends in farming incomes are always examined as we come up to the public expenditure survey round. Of course, I will review the position as we approach next year's arrangements.
Mr. Hicks : Does my right hon. Friend accept that good financial years are necessary not only to offset the years that are less good, but to enable the farmer to make necessary investment? Does my right hon. Friend realise that hill farmers make a positive contribution not only to the overall pattern of farming, but to the rural economy of those areas?
Mrs. Shephard : Yes, indeed. That is precisely why I stress the importance of hill farming to the economic and environmental well-being of the whole country. I am sure that my hon. Friend will wish to know that a couple of years ago, the average level of direct subsidies to hill livestock farmers in England was about £19,000. It is forecast that it will be £27,000 next year. That is a real increase and a real commitment to farming in hill areas which I am sure that my hon. Friend will appreciate.
Dr. Strang : Will the Minister acknowledge that between 1988 and 1990, hill farm incomes halved and that the figures that she has quoted today have to be set against that background? Will she accept that hill farmers require special assistance and that in many of the remotest parts of the country, the tourist industry is dependent on successful hill farming?
Mrs. Shephard : I am happy to confirm again my understanding of the importance of hill farming in those areas, in economic, environmental and social terms. But I should also remind the hon. Gentleman--it is a figure worth remembering--that there are some 67,000 hill farmers and next year they will benefit from a total of some £550 million worth of help through subsidies. That is a real commitment.
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Agriculture Markets (India)
7. Dr. Twinn : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what measures her Department has taken to open new markets for British agricultural-related businesses in India.
Mr. Jack : As part of the Indo-British partnership initiative announcement in January by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, I led a British mission to India in September with representatives of the British food and horticulture industry. They were able to identify new business opportunities, which are now being followed up.
Dr. Twinn : I thank my hon. Friend for his answer, and also for his visit and the good that it has done. Does he agree that the Indo-British partnership agreement has laid the way open for British technology in the food and horticulture industry? Will he now do all that he can to follow it up and ensure that British industry takes full advantage of that, to the benefit of British jobs and of India?
Mr. Jack : The point that my hon. Friend makes is vital, because the Indo-British partnership initiative has opened doors, both at high level in the Indian Government and in Indian business, for the whole of our food and agriculture industry to take advantage, particularly, of the economic reforms in India. I plan to hold a seminar at the beginning of next year, when those who went on the mission will report on their progress and have an opportunity to talk to others in the food and farming industry about possibilities for further export success with India.
Agricultural Wages Board
9. Mr. Hall : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what representations she has received concerning the future of the Agricultural wages board.
Mrs. Gillian Shephard : The consultation period on the future of the Agricultural wages board ended at the beginning of November, a period which I had extended by two months. I am still considering the many responses.
Mr. Hall : Is the Secretary of State aware that the Agricultural wages board has a far wider role than simply setting terms and conditions of employment in the agricultural industry? It has an important role in maintaining the excellent industrial relations in agriculture, in careeer structures and in training. Does she accept the views of the National Farmers Union and the Agricultural Workers Union that it is essential that the Agricultural wages board is retained?
Mrs. Shephard : I am still considering the numerous responses, many of which contained the points that the hon. Gentleman made.
Mr. Cormack : Is my right hon. Friend aware that almost everyone associated with agriculture in Staffordshire is anxious that the board should remain? Will she take that carefully into account?
Mrs. Shephard : Yes, Madam Speaker.
Mr. Strang : Will the Secretary of State acknowledge that she has received 3,566 responses to her consultation paper and 14 petitions and that, of all those responses, only
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11 favour abolition? Does she now accept that the whole agriculture industry wants the wages board to continue and that the sooner she announces that, the better?Mrs. Shephard : I can tell that the hon. Gentleman has availed himself of the consultation documents, which have been placed in the Ministry library. The figures are more or less as he says and I will certainly take them all into account.
Mr. Garnier : Does my right hon. Friend accept that what my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, South (Mr. Cormack) has just said about farmers in his constituency also applies to my constituency of Harborough? The farm workers, farm owners and landowners are adamant that the AWB should stay in place, but all three groups are equally adamant that a Labour Government should not ruin the best thing about this country--its agricultural business.
Mrs. Shephard : I shall say yes to all that.
Organic Farming
10. Ms Hoey : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps she has taken to help those farmers using organic methods ; and if she will make a statement.
Mrs. Gillian Shephard : The Ministry provides a broad range of help to farmers using organic methods, including a substantial research and development programme. An organic aid scheme is planned under the agri- environment programme.
Ms Hoey : The Secretary of State will be aware that nearly 70 per cent. of organic food consumed in this country is imported from Europe. Is not that deplorable? Why is this country not doing more to help organided from help while it is being given to people who will now make money from the fact that they have been polluting their land for some time?
Mrs. Shephard : I am sure that the hon. Lady knows that organic farmers also benefit from the help currently available to all other farmers. I am also sure that she knows that I had an extremely amicable meeting with representatives of organic producers, which very thoroughly written up in this bulletin. From that, she will learn that my hon. Friend the Minister of State will be meeting them again soon to discuss marketing arrangements--a matter with which they feel that they need help.
As for helping organic farmers who are already in business, it was my view that it was better to use our resources to encourage more people to convert to organic farming if we were serious about increasing the number of people who farm in that way.
Sir. Ralph Howell : Does my right hon. Friend agree that if everyone in agriculture opted for organic farming the country would either starve or have to import vast quantities of food over and above what it imports today? Is she still of the opinion that we have been successful in reducing our cereal crop by 11 per cent., or 2 million tonnes, when the whole of the European Union has reduced
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its harvest by only 2.6 per cent? Is she aware that more than half of our partners actually increased their production this year? Is she still satisfied that that is the way forward?Mrs. Shephard : My hon. Friend is right to point out that organic farming is one way of reducing production. I do not want to sound ageist in any way, but some of us remember that before the war everyone was an organic farmer.
As for set aside, which was the point of the second half of my hon. Friend's question, we should in the first year consider the intention of set aside, which involves the amount planted. My hon. Friend has an eye for these matters so I know that he will have noted a 7 per cent. reduction in cereal planting in the EC as a whole. There has been an increase in production in some cases because of the base year that was taken and the fact that some countries in the EC, such as Denmark, had a bad year because of drought the previous year. We need to consider the figures over a period of time. I agree with my hon. Friend that they will need watching.
Dairy Farming
11. Sir David Knox : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when she will next meet the president of the National Farmers Union to discuss the dairy sector.
Mrs. Gillian Shephard : I regularly meet representatives of all sides of the agriculture industry, including the president of the National Farmers Union, to discuss issues of importance to them.
Sir David Knox : Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that she will take an early decision about the milk marketing boards' reorganisation scheme in order to ensure continuity and income stability for dairy farmers?
Mrs. Shephard : The consultation period on the MMB's reorganisation scheme ended last week. With the Secretary of State for Wales, I am closely examining the proposals in the scheme and the very large number of representations received in the associated consultation. I shall make an announcement as soon as I can.
Mr. Skinner : When the Minister next meets representatives of the National Farmers Union to discuss the specific question of set aside, to which she has just referred, will she remind them that the Queen and Prince Charles have had more than £250,000 from the scheme? Does she agree that that should be knocked off the Civil List?
Mrs. Shephard : May I assure the hon. Gentleman that I shall do no such thing.
Horticulture
12. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what are her scientific priorities to ensure the future competitiveness of British horticulture.
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