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House of Commons
Thursday 2 December 1993
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
British Waterways Bill
[Lords]
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Promoters of the British Waterways Bill [Lords] may, notwithstanding anything in the Standing Orders or practice of this House, proceed with the Bill in the present Session and the Petition for the Bill shall be deemed to have been deposited and all Standing Orders applicable thereto shall be deemed to have been complied with ;
That, if the Bill is brought from the Lords in the present Session, the Agent for the Bill shall deposit in the Private Bill Office a declaration signed by him, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill which was brought from the Lords in the last Session ;
That as soon as a certificate by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office, that such a declaration has been so deposited, has been laid upon the Table of the House, the Bill shall be deemed to have been read for the first and second time and committed (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House has having been so read and committed) ;
That all Petitions relating to the Bill presented in the last Session which stand referred to the Committee on the Bill, together with any minutes of evidence taken before the Committee on the Bill, shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the present Session ;
That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on the Bill, unless their Petition has been presented within the time limited within the last Session or deposited pursuant to paragraph (b) of Standing Order 126 relating to Private Business ;
That, in relation to the Bill, Standing Order 127 relating to Private Business shall have effect as if the words "under Standing Order 126 (Reference to committee of petitions against Bill)" were omitted ;
That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the last Session.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
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Oral Answers to Questions
NORTHERN IRELAND
Economy
1. Mr. Parry : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he next expects to meet the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to discuss the economy.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Robert Atkins) : I met a delegation from the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trades Unions to discuss the economy in May. Neither my right hon. and learned Friend nor I have received requests for a further meeting.
Mr. Parry : When the Minister next meets the ICTU, will he congratulate the trade union movement in Northern Ireland on organising huge and safe demonstrations for peace in the Province? Will he also state when the Government will publish their proposals on policy appraisment and the fair treatment paths?
Mr. Atkins : I join the hon. Gentleman in his congratulations. As a former president of the Conservative Trade Unionists, I, too, have an interest. I offer deep support for the trade unionists in their activities in Northern Ireland, not least for the event to which he referred, which was a solid and impressive demonstration by a wide variety of working people expressing their desire for peace to be achieved and for the problems to be resolved. I hope to be able to say something about the hon. Gentleman's special point in the not-too-distant future.
Mr. William Ross : Does the Minister agree that not only members of trade unions but many other people in Northern Ireland are concerned about the training and retraining of people of all ages in the Province? When he next meets the trade unions, will he explain why money seems to be diverted from community workshops, which are badly run down in many parts of the Province, to private training agencies that apparently do little other than redirect people to colleges of further education?
Mr. Atkins : The hon. Gentleman is being untypically unfair about some of the great work that has been done by a number of the organisations to which he refers. It is fair to say that, pleasingly, an increasing number of young people wish to stay on at school to get qualifications of one sort or another, but the numbers using some of the training facilities have declined. We have made it clear that we will honour the commitment to provide every youngster with a training place and I am determined to ensure that that occurs.
Mr. Stott : Will the Minister, during his discussions with Terry Carlin of the Northern Ireland trade union movement, explain how the Budget will help the economy in Northern Ireland, given that a typical family will pay £10 a week more in tax next year, which will rise to £16 a week more by April 1995? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that those tax increases, coupled with the new taxes on house and car insurance and on holiday travel, not to mention VAT on fuel and the freezing of personal
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allowances, will drastically reduce people's purchasing power? Is not it self-evident that those measures will have a detrimental effect on the economy in Northern Ireland?Mr. Atkins : I should have thought that if I were to discuss matters with Mr. Carlin along those lines, I might find perhaps not his agreement, but his acceptance of the fact that, had the Labour party been elected, his members would have been worse off than they are now as a result of one of the most difficult recessions in recent years, which the United Kingdom is pulling out of faster than anyone else, leading the rest of Europe. I suspect that as Mr. Carlin is a fair and reasonable man, he would understand that point.
Employment
2. Mr. Trimble : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the effect of the MacBride principles on employment in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Atkins : The comprehensive Fair Employment (Northern Ireland) Act 1989 provides a vigorous and effective framework for achieving fair employment. The MacBride principles are unnecessary and inadequate as they do not advocate investment, without which the achievements of fair employment would be more difficult. It is impossible to quantify the negative effect of the MacBride campaign.
Mr. Trimble : I agree with all the criticisms that the Minister made of the MacBride principles, but it would be helpful if he got in touch with all the public authorities in the United States that foolishly adopt those principles and pointed out that in Northern Ireland more than 60 per cent. of employees are Protestant, yet according to aggregate employment in American firms to which the MacBride principles apply, only 55 per cent. of employees are Protestants, showing a significant imbalance.
Will the Minister also point out that the firm with the worst employment record is the American firm, United Technologies, in the constituency of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume), where out of 737 employees, fewer than 10 are Protestant. Will the Minister point out to the public authorities in the United States that if they are to take action to achieve fair employment, they could begin on those terms?
Mr. Atkins : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his tacit support. I suspect that the proverb of mote and beam has a part to play here. My task and that of all Northern Irish Members is to ensure that any state or city of the United States that has companies that we wish to encourage to invest in Northern Ireland is persuaded by us, by the House and by our ambassador and his staff in the United States that the Fair Employment (Northern Ireland) Act is one of the most rigorous of its type anywhere in the world. All that MacBride has done is to make life difficult for American companies that wish to invest in Northern Ireland, knowing as they do that it is such a fine place with such a fine work force.
Mrs. Ann Winterton : Will my hon. Friend make the strongest representations to the Clinton Administration to remove the outdated MacBride principles? Will he assure them that the best way to help the Province is to strengthen its economy by investment and by increasing employment?
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Mr. Atkins : My hon. Friend puts her finger on the matter succinctly. It is true that President Clinton, as a candidate and as President soon after his election, made it clear that he supported MacBride. However, I know that the good work being done by our ambasssador and visits such as those carried out by Northern Ireland Members have made the position on MacBride and our Fair Employment (Northern Ireland) Act much clearer to representatives of the United States Administration. Their support in these matters is to be welcomed.
Dr. Hendron : Will the Minister accept that it is the rhetoric of MacBride rather than the principles which could lead to disinvestment in Northern Ireland?
Mr. Atkins : Indeed. The hon. Gentleman, who played such a significant part, along with his colleague in this context--the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr.Walker)--on their recent trip, again puts his finger on the problem. It is the campaign and the people asssociated with it rather than the substance which is causing the problem. Anything that any hon. Member can do when visiting the United States will be much appreciated by everyone in Northern Ireland.
Schools
3. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many children of primary and secondary school age are in what number of schools ; what is the average class size in primary and secondary schools : and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Sir Patrick Mayhew) : At October 1992, there were 185,626 pupils in 983 primary schools and 145,512 pupils in 234 secondary schools. The average class size in primary schools was 24.9 pupils. Information on class sizes is not collected for secondary schools.
Mr. Greenway : Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the quality of education in Northern Ireland is, rightly, highly renowned throughout the United Kingdom? Is he further aware that although excellence in education does not necessarily depend on class size, the class sizes in primary schools which he has mentioned are a matter for congratulation?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I am grateful to my hon. Friend, with his professional and lifelong experience of education, for what he says and for his tribute to the quality of education in Northern Ireland. It has the best rates for A-levels for those leaving school, so my hon. Friend's tributes are well deserved. Class size is a helpful indicator, but, as he rightly says, it is the quality of teaching rather than the size of schools which is the primary determinant of results.
Mr. Beggs : Does the Secretary of State agree that children who have had the benefit of a good nursery education are more likely to realise their full potential as they proceed through primary and secondary schools? Will he undertake to review the current low level of provision of nursery education places in Northern Ireland? Will he seek to make funding available to the boards so that they can increase nursery school places? Will he also take account of the importance of the early diagnosis and
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recognition of children with special educational needs, and will he seek to encourage earlier identification and additional remedial assistance for those children?Sir Patrick Mayhew : I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman on what he says about the importance of nursery education. It is easy for a child from a deprived home or with particular difficulties to join the losers' club if he or she gets to school, finds that he or she cannot keep up and resorts therefore to the truculence and disagreeable behaviour with which we are all familiar.
The overall proportion of three and four-year-olds in nursery education in Northern Ireland--46 per cent.--is broadly in line with that in England and Wales. That is something which we wish to improve. I should like to write to the hon. Gentleman about the latter part of his question.
RUC (Personal Security)
4. Mr. Brazier : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps are being taken to improve the personal security of part-time members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Royal Irish Regiment.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Sir John Wheeler) : Measures to safeguard the personal security of police officers and soldiers in Northern Ireland are in place and kept under constant review. It is not in the public interest to discuss specific items or cases.
Mr. Brazier : Yes, indeed ; but on this day, when another soldier has been killed in Ulster, I put it to my right hon. Friend that part-time soldiers, policemen and their families suffer the greatest risks of all. The attrition that they have suffered is the main cause for the sharp and continuing decline in their numbers.
Is not the best way to improve their security and that of everyone in Ulster to get the terrorists behind bars? To that end--as with the criminal justice legislation--there must be ways of ensuring, through disclosure and other measures, that a higher proportion of terrorist prosecutions in Ulster results in such men going behind bars at the end of trial.
Sir John Wheeler : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He referred to the tragic killing today of a young soldier in Northern Ireland. I know that the whole House will wish to extend its sympathy to the family of that young man. My hon. Friend is right to say that the care of those who volunteer to serve in the Royal Ulster Constabulary reserve and the Royal Irish Regiment as part-time soldiers is very important. We owe them a great debt.
The fact that so many people in the part-time Royal Irish Regiment are able to make themselves available for duty every third day is a great credit to them and their families. I can assure my hon. Friend that every care is taken of them. I visited the Royal Irish Regiment yesterday and saw the arrangements for the care of those part-time soldiers and their families. I am pleased to tell the House that it is of the highest order. The point that my hon. Friend makes about reviewing the law is a matter that the Government have under constant review.
Rev. William McCrea : Although I join the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) in offering sympathy to the family of the young soldier, it is important that the safety and security of my constituents along the border should also be of the highest order. Has the Minister
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received any communication about the fact that, at 4 o'clock last Saturday, on the Kilcleen border in United Kingdom territory, a constituent of mine, who is a member of the security forces, was stopped and questioned by the Garda Siochana and asked for details concerning his comings and goings?My constituent told the officer that he was not answerable to the Garda when in the United Kingdom. When my constituent told him that it is not a united Ireland yet, the officer said, "It is near enough." That situation is despicable in the United Kingdom. It is totally unacceptable and is putting fear in my constituents. Unfortunately, although the House condemned the soldier's death today, there will be someone from the Government speaking to the murderers tomorrow.
Sir John Wheeler : I have no knowledge of the incident to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I take note of what he says and, if he gives me further details, I will have the matter investigated. I can tell the House that co-operation between the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Garda Siochana has never been greater.
Rathlin Ferry Service
5. Mr. Peter Bottomley : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the Rathlin ferry service.
Mr. Atkins : The Government are committed to a safe and comfortable Rathlin ferry service. We have grant-aided Moyle council for safety works at Ballycastle and Rathlin harbours and have provided subsidies to the ferry operators. Major harbour works are required for a modern ferry service, but resources for those works will be considered along with other requirements against necessarily limited resources.
Mr. Bottomley : I ask this question about north Antrim with the agreement, and blessing, of the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), in his absence. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is wrong that, year after year, the necessary moneys to provide safe harbours at each end of the ferry service are cancelled from the estimates? Is it not about time that there was a firm commitment so that both the residents of, and the visitors to, this historic island can get on and off their boats in safety?
Mr. Atkins : I know that my hon. Friend takes a close interest in Rathlin island and is still famed on the island for his involvement there when he served in the Province. I share with him and the islanders the concern about the lack of resources, but he will know that we have undergone a difficult public expenditure round and finances are tight. It is in my mind to do something about that as soon as we can, not least because my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland also has an interest in a route that might exist from Campbeltown to Rathlin and Ballycastle. However, resources are simply not available at this stage.
Mr. A. Cecil Walker : As the Minister responsible for another form of ferry service, will the hon. Gentleman tell us when he hopes to publish the taxi review, which has been with his office for some time?
Mr. Atkins : The hon. Gentleman is ingenious, but he makes a fair point. It is one which my right hon. and learned Friend and I have been looking at in some detail.
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I am conscious of the urgency of the matter and of the concern that the hon. Gentleman has represented to me and others, and we are doing our level best to produce something soon.Ms Hoey : The Minister will be aware that there has been great delay in advertising for a teacher for the home tuition unit on Rathlin island. When will that post be advertised? Does he agree that if it is the Department's aim to increase the number of integrated schools, Rathlin island would be a wonderful place to set an example? It is the only place in Northern Ireland where people of all faiths are buried together. Should we not be trying to get an integrated school there?
Mr. Atkins : Not only are people buried together, but they live together, and in this context that is perhaps more important. The hon. Lady raises a fair point. As she will know, I am not responsible for education, but I have taken the liberty, thanks to her, of making some inquiries. There has been no request from the island for an integrated school and that is the most fundamental factor, but my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), the Under-Secretary of State who looks after education matters, and I in general terms will look at the matter closely to see what can be done to follow through the point which she raises.
Health and Social Services Boards
6. Rev. Martin Smyth : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many managers and administrators there were in the four health and social services boards on 1 January 1990, and in the designated trusts and boards on the most recent date available.
Sir John Wheeler : On 1 January 1990, there were 5,789 managers and administrators employed in the four health and social services boards. On 30 September 1993, there were 7,190 managers and administrators employed in the four boards in the HSS trusts.
Rev. Martin Smyth : I welcome that answer, but it conflicts with an answer given in Hansard on 25 November. Will the Minister accept that there is some discrepancy in the provision of care in Northern Ireland when, as is shown in that answer, between 1990 and 1993, there was an increase of 11.3 per cent. in the number of administrators and of 91 per cent. in the number of managers and a decrease of 11.3 per cent. in the number of nurses and midwives? Does he agree that managers and administrators are not able to give hands-on care?
Sir John Wheeler : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. As he says, there has been an increase, but that is linked to the growth in finance, personnel and information technology staff. The part played by the administrators and managers in the care of patients has resulted in the number of patients waiting for two years or more for in-patient treatment being reduced from 5,277 to 1,332, a reduction of 75 per cent. Those administrators play an important part in the health care programme for Northern Ireland and relieve the medical and paramedical people of a responsibility for bureaucracy and administration.
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Tourism
7. Mr. Ian Bruce : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the latest figures for tourism in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Atkins : The latest figures available are for 1992, when 1.25 million visitors came to Northern Ireland, representing an increase of 6 per cent. over the previous year. This was the fourth successive annual increase in visitor numbers, which is highly encouraging set against the background of a difficult year for the tourist trade worldwide.
Mr. Bruce : Will my hon. Friend send our congratulations to all those involved in the tourism industry in the Province for maintaining their traditional welcome? Will he tell the House what more can be done to promote this excellent industry and to increase the benefits gained from tourism in the Province?
Mr. Atkins : I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I join him in congratulating the chairman of the Northern Ireland tourist board, Hugh O'Neil, together with all members of his board. They have done a tremendous amount of work to ensure that tourism--the fastest growing industry in the western world--goes from strength to strength in Northern Ireland. There is more that we can do in terms of resources and commitments, and we are trying so to do. Above all, we need to get across--as we are doing --the positive message about Northern Ireland being "the place you will never know unless you go." The more that we promote Northern Ireland in the House, the more visitors will come and the more profit will be gained for those in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Clifford Forsythe : The Minister will be aware that good travel facilities are necessary for tourists in Northern Ireland. Will he tell the House what steps he will take, or has taken, to sort out the infighting which is apparently taking place between not only the airports in Northern Ireland but the airlines there? It will lead to a lack of confidence about the travel facilities in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Atkins : The hon. Gentleman speaks with great authority on airport matters because he has an airport in his constituency. I take slight issue with him on his last sentence--that this will harm the tourist industry. It is clear that competition among airlines and airports can only be good for the traveller because, we hope, it will reduce costs and make things more attractive over a period. The point that the hon. Gentleman raises about differences of opinion interests me. They are not directly a matter for me, except in so far as it affects my custodianship of Aldergrove airport, albeit temporarily.
Mr. Viggers : I take pleasure in the fact that 1992 was the fourth year of growth in the Northern Ireland tourist business. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is important that Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland co-operate on tourism, particularly as it is supported by the International Fund for Ireland and European Community funds?
Mr. Atkins : It would be fair to record that my hon. Friend probably started the increase in tourism when he was a Northern Ireland Minister and, to that extent, its roots lie with him. I agree with what he said. We must attempt to get the message across to those who wish to
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come to the island of Ireland that they can travel north and south and enjoy excellent facilities. Discussions that the tourist board is having with Bord Failte from the south are aimed at doing that. For example, the Erne-Shannon waterway crosses the border and is of mutual interest. It is something which people are keen to see when they come to Northern Ireland.Mr. McGrady : I certainly accept that the Minister is deeply committed to the development of tourism in Northern Ireland. Does he agree that one important aspect is to provide the necessary infrastructure so that we can leap forward, as it were, when peace breaks out? Is the Minister aware that a quango appointed by the Government, the Northern Ireland Museum Council, has made direct representations to Brussels? That has frustrated applications made for funding there for several flagship developments for tourism. Is the Minister aware of that and does he agree with it--and if not, what action does he propose to take to indicate to the Brussels Commission that that is not the attitude or feeling of the people of Northern Ireland or of his Department?
Mr. Atkins : I agree with the hon. Gentleman that Northern Ireland has some fine museums, not least the one in his constituency with which I have been privileged to be associated. I am not aware of the detail to which he referred. I must investigate the matter and I promise that I will write to him. If he has further information that I ought to have, I should be grateful if he would talk to me later.
Mr. William O'Brien : I agree with the Minister and with other hon. Members that tourism is most important to Northern Ireland. It mainly comprises small businesses, which compete for a share of the market. I agree with the Minister that the Northern Ireland tourist board brings together both the private and the public sector to develop tourism. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that what is required now is for the national heritage section of his Department to work with the Northern Ireland tourist board and the local authorities--which, with their limited resources, promote tourism--to make available through the Northern Ireland Office details about arts, culture, historic buildings, music, museums and so on, as that would help to give tourism in Northern Ireland a boost? Will the hon. Gentleman take that suggestion on board and act so that we can further stimulate tourism in Northern Ireland?
Mr. Atkins : There are many documents which pull together the concerns to which the hon. Gentleman draws attention. As I would expect of him, he has come up with a very good idea. I shall certainly consider it and draw it to the attention of the bodies that can best implement it.
Inter-party Talks
8. Mr. Burden : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on progress towards the resumption of the inter -party talks, and on talks that he has had with the Irish Government.
Sir Patrick Mayhew : The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), is engaged in private discussions to explore the basis on which the parties can come together for further dialogue. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has recently met the four main constitutional party leaders.
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Additionally, we are in discussion with the Irish Government on matters of mutual interest, including constitutional issues. It remains our objective to return to multilateral talks involving the two Governments and the four main constitutional parties at the appropriate point.Mr. Burden : Given article 1 of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, will the Secretary of State tell the House plainly whether he accepts that the Irish people have a right to national self-determination, based on consent freely given--north and south?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I think that the Anglo-Irish Agreement speaks for itself. What is of most immediate importance to those concerned for stability, in Northern Ireland in particular, is that it should be thoroughly understood, as the Prime Minister has made it abundantly clear, that the British Government--the Government--stand firmly behind the democratic wishes of the people of Northern Ireland as regards the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.
Sir James Kilfedder : Does the Secretary of State accept that it would be a great mistake for the media or anyone else to interpret the present yearning for peace as a movement for appeasement at any price? Does he not agree that the majority of Ulster people want peace, political progress and the best of relations with the Irish Republic, but not at the cost of weakening their position within the United Kingdom?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : That is absolutely right. As my hon. Friend said, we went into the matter with some care on Monday. There is an overwhelming demand, as well as a yearning, for peace--but not, as I endeavoured to say on Monday, at any price. Peace properly attained is what people require T Mr. Molyneaux : In response to any inquiries from foreign parts, will the Secretary of State explain clearly that those conversations and informal discussions being so ably pursued by the Parliamentary Under- Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), have the aim and object of restoring accountable democracy to all the people of Northern Ireland and that that is a necessary first step to restoring stability and subsequently peace?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his well-deserved tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes. My hon. Friend has made good progress with those with whom he is talking in the bilateral discussions. There is a good measure of agreement on the need for new political institutions in Northern Ireland. Those institutions are essential if democratic accountability is to be restored, and everyone recognises that that would be a good thing.
I am not sure that I would agree with the right hon. Gentleman in saying that that is the first requirement. I believe, as I have just said, that the first requirement for the restoration of stability in Northern Ireland is for everyone to accept beyond question that the democratically expressed wishes of the people of Northern Ireland will determine their future status.
Mr. Peter Robinson : Will the Secretary of State tell the House why, at a press conference in Northern Ireland on Sunday, he said that he had only recently learnt of some
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unapproved contacts on a face-to-face basis between British Government officials and the IRA, when the documents that he supplied to the Library indicate that he knew back on 10 May? Why did the Secretary of State tell the press conference that they did not form part of the process that the Government were having with the IRA when they formed part of at least three of the messages?The right hon. and learned Gentleman persists in saying that they were unapproved contacts. Why did he never at any stage after he was made aware of them indicate to the IRA that it was talking to loose cannons? Is it not about time that the Secretary of State came clean? Has he not stretched credulity beyond breaking point?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I said at the press conference that I gave on Sunday in Northern Ireland that it had recently come to our notice that there had been an unauthorised meeting between somebody of official status and a member of Sinn Fein. The reason I said that was because it was true. It had come to our notice--that there had been an unauthorised meeting-- something like 10 days or perhaps a couple of weeks previously.
We also learned that some three years ago there had been--or probably had been--a meeting with somebody of similar status in the circumstances which were probably described by Martin McGuinness recently. That happens to be the case. I want to make it clear that there is no question of there being anybody who is authorised to conduct talks or negotiations with Sinn Fein or the IRA, or with any other organisation that either perpetrates or justifies the use of violence.
Mr. Alton : Will the Secretary of State repeat the Prime Minister's recent comment that this still remains the best opportunity for peace? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the participants in the middle east process--which is so often cited--were not subjected to the full glare of media speculation or to leaked documents, and were helped by the presence of an independent arbiter? Can not we learn from that process?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : It is only a partially apt analogy, because the middle east process was one of negotiations. No negotiations have taken place of the character that I described on Monday by use of the chain of communication. That chain is a secret and valuable one. The hon. Gentleman is right to point to the value of a secret means of communication with groups such as Sinn Fein. It should not be assumed that there is a direct analogy with the Israeli-Arafat process because no negotiations have been conducted by means of that chain.
Lady Olga Maitland : Will my right hon. and learned Friend join me in welcoming the remarks by the Archbishop of Armagh yesterday here at Westminster when he called on Sinn Fein and the IRA to cease violence and, more than that, called for them to accept unambiguously the democratic process?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I have heard many tributes paid to the speech made by Cardinal Daly yesterday which, unfortunately, I was not able to hear. The Archbishop was a fine record of resistance to and denunciation of violence which is pursued for political purposes or for any other purpose. His speech will repay a careful examination.
Mr. McNamara : Does the Secretary of State acknowledge the value of the goal of a united Ireland?
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Sir Patrick Mayhew : One needs to be careful when speaking in language that attributes value to a particular notion. The British Government cannot join the ranks of the persuaders. Here we differ from the Opposition who wish to persuade the people of Northern Ireland to leave the United Kingdom and join a united Ireland. We believe that it should be for the people of Northern Ireland to determine for themselves, without persuasion from us, whether they wish to remain in the United Kingdom. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman asks a rather naively loaded question when he asks whether we will sign up to the value of a united Ireland. What we sign up to is the value of maintaining a democracy and the rights of all democrats within the United Kingdom.
Mr. Butcher : I welcome the hint that my right hon. and learned Friend gave earlier that he may be considering restoring some of the functions of local government within the Province of Northern Ireland, but will he reassure me on whether a stage has been reached in which a foreign Government have a say in the internal constitutional affairs of the United Kingdom, or do the conversations that are going on with the Government of southern Ireland exclude that possibility?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : No, the Government stand by the agreement reached between all the four main constitutional parties and the Irish Government and ourselves back in 1991 that there should be discussions-- political talks--with a view to achieving an overall settlement of all the political relationships within Northern Ireland, between north and south and between Dublin and London. The parties agreed that there should be a place in that process at a particular point for the Irish Government and that point was reached. When sufficient progress on strand 1 had been attained, the Irish Government came in. We hold to that agreement to which all the four main constitutional political parties adhered and we are not at the moment in the course of conducting any discussions that are incompatible with that agreement.
Mr. Hume : Following what the Secretary of State has just said, he will reaffirm that the talks process to which both Governments and all parties agreed involved facing up to all the relationships that go to the heart of the problem, and those relationships include relationships with this Parliament. Have the Government already agreed a relationship with any party in this Parliament behind the backs of other parties?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : The hon. Gentleman knows the answer very well. He had better come out openly and ask whether a deal has been done between the Government and the Ulster Unionist party. If he asks that-- [Interruption.] I would rather the hon. Gentleman did not shout while I am trying to answer his question, because I assume, in his favour, that he is interested in an answer. If that is what the hon. Gentleman means, I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux) have said. If, on the other hand, the hon. Gentleman is referring to the report issued by the Procedure Committee last night, the Government have not reached a conclusion on that. The Government will study what has been said and will take account of the views of parties in the House in the ordinary way. Much has been said here about the need to reduce the democratic deficit in Northern Ireland and affecting
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