House of Commons Hansard Debates for 27 Oct 1993

Hansard

House of Commons

Wednesday 27 October 1993

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[ Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

British Railways (No. 4) Bill

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That the Promoters of the British Railways (No. 4) Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ;

That, on the fifth day on which the House sits in the next Session, the Bill shall be presented to the House ;

That there shall be deposited with the Bill a declaration signed by the Agents for the Bill, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill at the last stage of its proceedings in this House in the present Session ;

That the Bill shall be laid upon the Table of the House by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office on the next meeting of the House after the day on which the Bill has been presented and, when so laid, shall be read the first and second time and committed (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read and committed) ;

That since no Petitions remain against the Bill no Petitioners shall be heard before any committee on the Bill save those who complain of any amendment as proposed in the filled up Bill or of any matter which arises during the progress of the Bill before the Committee ;

That no further fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

That these Orders by Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Hon. Members : Object.

British Waterways Bill [Lords]

Motion made, and Question proposed.

That the Promoters of the British Waterways Bill [Lords] shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ; That, if the Bill is brought from the Lords in the next Session, the Agent for the Bill shall deposit in the Private Bill Office a declaration signed by him, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill which was brought from the Lords in the present Session ;

That, as soon as a certificate by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office, that such a declaration has been so deposited, has been laid upon the Table of the House, the Bill shall be read the first and second time and committed (and shall be recorded in the Journal of the House as having been so read and committed) ;

That all Petitions relating to the Bill presented in the present Session which stand referred to the Committee on the Bill, together with any minutes of evidence taken before the Committee on the Bill, shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the next Session ;

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That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on the Bill, unless their Petition has been presented within the time limited within the present Session or deposited pursuant to paragraph (b) of Standing Order 126 relating to Private Business ;

That, in relation to the Bill, Standing Order 127 relating to Private Business shall have effect as if the words "under Standing Order 126 (Reference to committee of petitions against Bill)" were omitted ;

That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Hon. Members : Object.

Croydon Tramlink Bill

[Lords]

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That the Promoters of the Croydon Tramlink Bill [Lords] shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ; That, if the Bill is brought from the Lords in the next Session, the Agent for the Bill shall deposit in the Private Bill Office a declaration signed by him, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill which was brought from the Lords in the present Session ;

That all Petitions relating to the Bill presented in the present Session which stand referred to the Committee on the Bill shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the next Session ; That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on the Bill, unless their Petition has been presented within the time limited within the present Session or deposited pursuant to paragraph (b) of Standing Order 126 relating to Private Business ;

That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Hon. Members : Object.

Letchworth Garden City Heritage Foundation Bill

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That the Promoters of the Letchworth Garden City Heritage Foundation Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ;

That on the fifth day on which the House sits in the next Session the Bill shall be presented to the House ;

That all Petitions relating to the Bill presented in the present Session which stand referred to the Committee on the Bill,

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together with any minutes of evidence taken before the Committee on the Bill, shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the next Session ;

That in relation to the Bill, Standing Order 127 relating to Private Business shall have effect as if the words "under Standing Order 126 (Reference to committee of petitions against the Bill)" were omitted ;

That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Hon. Members : Object.

London Local Authorities Bill [Lords]

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That the Promoters of the London Local Authorities Bill [Lords] shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ; That, if the Bill is brought from the Lords in the next Session, the Agent for the Bill shall deposit in the Private Bill Office a declaration signed by him, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill which was brought from the Lords in the present Session ;

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That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Hon. Members : Object.

London Underground (Green Park) Bill

Motion made, and Question proposed,

That the Promoters of the London Underground (Green Park) Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ; That on the fifth day on which the House sits in the next Session the Bill shall be presented to the House ;

That all Petitions relating to the Bill presented in Session 1991-92 or the present Session which stand referred to the Committee on the Bill, together with any minutes of evidence taken before the Committee on the Bill, shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the next Session ;

That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on the Bill, unless their Petition has been presented within the time limited within Session 1991-92 or deposited pursuant to paragraph (b) of Standing Order 126 relating to Private Business ;

That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Hon. Members : Object.

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Oral Answers to Questions

SCOTLAND

Economy

1. Mr. Salmond : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he last met the chairman and chief executive of Scottish Enterprise to discuss trends in the Scottish economy ; and if he will make a statement.

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Ian Lang) : I regularly meet the chairman and chief executive of Scottish Enterprise to discuss a range of issues relevant to the Scottish economy.

Mr. Salmond : At one of those regular meetings, will the Secretary of State take time to discusss the position of the local enterprise companies in the Scottish economy? Does he accept that the serious problems --indeed, chaos--that have been encountered in a number of local enterprise companies, including Dumfries and Galloway, indicate that something is deeply wrong with the structure that was established a few years ago--a structure which the Secretary of State will recall was meant to introduce a high-wage, high-skill economy and eliminate Scottish unemployment? Specifically, does the Secretary of State support the view of Forth Valley Enterprise that there should be a mandatory declaration of all directors' interests in any company that is being assisted? In a break with normal practice at Question Time, will the Secretary of State address and answer that question?

Mr. Lang : I do not recognise the picture of the Scottish Enterprise network of local enterprise companies described by the hon. Gentleman. Nor do I think it necessary to issue directives of any kind in the sense that he suggests. Matters of that kind are a matter for Scottish Enterprise. I am confident that, under its new chairman, its responsibilities are being well fulfilled.

Mr. Gallie : Is my right hon. Friend aware that over recent months unemployment in my constituency has fallen month by month? Does he recognise that, with the recent announcement of redundancies by Jetstream, that happy trend may change? Will he ensure that, in the future, Jetstream can compete in the world market on a level playing field?

Mr. Lang : I agree with my hon. Friend that unemployment has fallen in his constituency and is substantially lower than it was at the peak a few years ago. However, I share his concern to ensure the welfare of the major employers in his constituency. I note his concern over Jetstream and British Aerospace, and I am keeping in touch with developments there. I hope that the world market for the aircraft produced by BAe will improve in a way that will be beneficial to the company.

Mr. McAllion : Is the Secretary of State aware that if we look backwards we can see that the net result of 14 years of Tory Government has been to add more than 100,000 Scots to the doll queues? If we look forward, even his Department's economic bulletin forecasts a further reduction in the Scottish labour force of 34,000 over the next 10 years. Does he not understand that his stewardship

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of the Scottish economy has caused a whole generation of our most talented and highly skilled youngsters to despair of ever finding a job in their own country? Does he not understand that if the Scottish economy is ever to be made to serve the needs of the Scottish people, it will require an elected Scottish Government set in a powerful Scottish Parliament, and with decisive powers of intervention in the Scottish economy?

Mr. Lang : The hon. Gentleman's question bears little relation to the facts. The fact is that unemployment is lower in Scotland than in any of the other countries of the United Kingdom. It is below the European Community average. Employment has risen by 169,000 in the past decade. The hon. Gentleman need only look at The Scotsman today to see the confident forecasts of the Confederation of British Industry on manufacturing, investment, exports, construction and a great many other sectors of the Scottish economy.

Sir Nicholas Fairbairn : May I ask my right hon. Friend, who is sitting beside Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, to intervene in the expenditure of the enterprise companies? They have spent nearly £500, 000 on tweeifying a roundabout at Turnhouse airport. My right hon. Friend's Department is about to build a palace in Leith, bringing in extra bureaucrats at a cost of £65 million. In the present difficult climate for expenditure, could we not stop Government Departments spending so grotesquely?

Mr. Lang : I begin by welcoming my hon. and learned Friend back to the House, fully restored in health and vigour and as colourful as ever.

I hope that the term "grotesque" was not a subjective judgment on the architectural merits of the new Scottish Office building in Leith, which has been widely praised. I assure my hon. and learned Friend, however, that the financial implications of that building were rigorously scrutinised before the decision to go ahead was made. The budgets of local enterprise companies are a matter for Scottish Enterprise, but I do not think that my hon. and learned Friend is telling me that its budget is too high. I note his comments nevertheless.

Mr. Wallace : Will the Secretary of State confirm that during the 14 and a half years of his party's Administration, unemployment among newly qualified graduates has rocketed? Quite apart from the frustration that that must cause, will he agree that it amounts to a tremendous loss of skills and abilities from the Scottish economy? When he meets the chairman of Scottish Enterprise, what proposals will he have to ensure that there are jobs for these graduates?

Mr. Lang : The point that the hon. Gentleman misses is that the proportion of people going into higher education under this Government has doubled--from 17 to 34.5 per cent.--during the 14 years of which he speaks. Thus, if the number of people going into higher education doubles, inevitably the number of people who have difficulty finding jobs afterwards will also increase in the shorter term. We now have a higher trained, more highly qualified work force than we had under the Labour Government--a work force which wins praise from countries all around the world, as I discovered on my recent trip to the far east.

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Mr. Bill Walker : When my right hon. Friend meets and talks to Scottish Enterprise will he draw its attention to the fact that key industry in Germany is working one week in four? The work force performs one week of work and spends three on the equivalent of the dole. Does not that show how Government policies and Scottish Enterprise have brought Scotland through a world recession in much better shape than the former leading country of the European Community?

Mr. Lang : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. What is also important is the focus and attention given to training by Scottish Enterprise. That is one of the keys to economic success. Germany benefited enormously from it in the 1960s and 1970s. By following its example, we are now in a position to benefit similarly in the 1990s.

Mr. George Robertson : When the Secretary of State meets the board of Scottish Enterprise and other Scottish industrialists who rightly look to the Government to create the conditions for growth and for business confidence, how will he explain to them what they have witnessed--the betrayal and destruction of an industry as vital and necessary as coal mining? Will the right hon. Gentleman recognise that, by conspiring directly through a dodgy privatisation of the electricity industry and then artificially rigging markets, the Government have not only blitzed thousands upon thousands of jobs and livelihoods but virtually annihilated a whole industry? Does not that industrial vandalism give a clear signal to industrialists who want conditions for growth and investment that, when it comes to the bit, the Government do little and care less?

Mr. Lang : I start by welcoming the hon. Gentleman to the Front Bench of Scottish politics, and I congratulate him both on his success in the shadow Cabinet elections and on his richly deserved appointment as shadow Secretary of State.

The hon. Gentleman has overlooked the fact that the Government's policies have ensured the lowest inflation rate for some 30 years, the lowest interest rates for a generation and a competitive exchange rate. As a result, confidence is rising, investment and manufacturing output are increasing and orders are growing. All of those things can happen only if we are competitive in the sources of all our energy consumption. That is as applicable to coal as to any other energy source. If coal is competitive, coal prospers--if coal is uncompetitive, it cannot.

Trust Hospitals

2. Mr. Kynoch : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many applications for trust status hospitals are currently being considered in Scotland.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Allan Stewart) : Following the announcement by my noble and learned Friendthe Minister of State on 15 October, nine third-wave NHS trust applications remain under consideration. An announcement on these will be made shortly.

Mr. Kynoch : I welcome the information that further hospitals are seeking trust status, which brings great benefits to large and small hospitals alike.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in Kincardine and Deeside, since Grampian Healthcare took on trust status there has been a 5.1 per cent. improvement in utilisation and a 7.1

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per cent. increase in the use of maternity beds in community hospitals? Those hospitals are important to communities such as Torphins, which I will be visiting on Saturday. Will my hon. Friend join me in encouraging Grampian Healthcare to pursue a policy of further development of community hospitals in rural areas?

Mr. Stewart : I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I am aware that, since becoming a trust in April, Grampian Healthcare has increased significantly the services that it provides to patients. There are other examples in addition to those raised by my hon. Friend, such as the eating disorder and drug abuse services which the trust has introduced.

My hon. Friend is right to emphasise that local flexibility, which is, of course, a feature of trusts, is the key to improving patient services.

Mr. Wray : Does the Minister agree that bringing trusts to Scotland has brought no benefit at all? Since 1990, the Government have spent £120 million for the additional costs of trust status. The Greater Glasgow health board has spent 21 per cent. of its funding on treatment care, and Lothian health board is offering BMWs to its consultants.

Does the Minister also agree that, from 1970 to 1980, the number of people on waiting lists for treatment care was never more than 60,000, and yet, with all the money that has been spent by the Government in Scotland, that figure has increased to 80,000?

Mr. Stewart : I am afraid that I must wholly disagree with the hon. Gentleman. [Hon. Members :-- "Why?"] I am about tell Opposition Members why.

If the hon. Gentleman looks at the figures, he will see that the evidence is overwhelming. As a consequence of the establishment of the first wave of trusts, including the Aberdeen royal hospital trust--which received a charter mark aware today--and the South Ayrshire trust, more patients are being treated than ever before. Better services and facilities are being provided, and services are better adapted to patient needs. That is the reality.

Mr. John Marshall : Does my hon. Friend agree that the news from Foresterhill House shows how inaccurate the scaremongering of Opposition Members is? Will my hon. Friend remind the House that Opposition Members said that Aberdeen infirmary would go down the drain if it became a trust? Is not the infirmary doing well, and should not it be congratulated?

Mr. Stewart : I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. As usual, there were all sorts of forecasts of doom and gloom from Opposition Members which have been shown by the facts to be completely invalid.

Mrs. Fyfe : Does the Minister recall John Chawner, the chairman of the British Medical Association consultants committee, saying : "The introduction of Trusts has been an extremely costly exercise without proven benefit. Nothing that has happened under the NHS reforms has provided more money for services."

Does the Minister think that Mr. Chawner is ill-informed?

Mr. Stewart : The facts about the established trusts and the improvements that have been achieved are clear. I can give example after example. If the hon. Lady wants examples from North Ayrshire and Arran, I can tell her that a new day surgery unit and open access X-ray services have been provided. Also, the patients' friend welcoming

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service initiative and improvements in accommodation and services for terminally ill patients and their families have been implemented. I should have thought that Opposition Members would welcome those improvements.

Local Government

3. Mr. Welsh : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has had with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities on his proposals to reorganise Scottish local government ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Lang : I have had no discussions with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities on the issue of local government reform since it decided to adopt its policy of non-co-operation. I and my colleagues have, however, held useful meetings over the summer with representatives of a number of individual authorities.

Mr. Welsh : Will the Secretary of State rule out any form of domestic water supply disconnection in Scotland and ensure that unelected and unaccountable water boards do not use

self-disconnection and water meters as a reason for cutting off domestic supply, thus creating a liquid poll tax that hits the poorest hardest? Will he bear that in mind in his deliberations?

Mr. Lang : Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is not aware that, at present, the law does not allow disconnections. I have no plans to change it.

Mr. Raymond S. Robertson : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the so-called policy of non-co-operation adopted by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has had as many relaunches and comebacks as Frank Sinatra? Will he urge COSLA to drop all pretence of non-co-operation, for the benefit of those local government employees who provide such sterling services, and for the people of Scotland who are the beneficiaries of those services?

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