House of Commons Hansard Debates for 30 Jun 1993

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major powers, such as the right to abolish the Commission, to approve the budget and to approve the enlargement of the European Community.

Mr. Quentin Davies (Stamford and Spalding) : Does the right hon. Gentleman regard the United States Congress as not being a proper parliamentary body because it does not appoint an Executive?

Mr. Taylor : That is a fair point, but Congress has the right to make laws. The European Parliament has no legislative role. It has powers to abolish the Commission and to approve the budget and the enlargement of the European Community. Beyond that, it is in reality a talking shop, as I know from my 10 years there. It is a useful consultative body where the peoples of Europe at least have a chance to express their views on the Commission's diktats. If we did not have a Parliament in Strasbourg, the Commission would get away with more than it does at present.

Mrs. Currie : I hear what the right hon. Gentleman says, but I wonder whether he has read the Maastricht treaty and knows of the additional powers that will be given to the European Parliament. The European Parliament will have one thing that this House does not have and probably will never have, which is a veto over legislation affecting the whole of Europe.

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, let me point out that we are not debating the constitutional niceties of the European Parliament. We are considering the number of seats, boring though that may be.

Mr. Taylor : I accept your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was talking about the Parliament to which we elect Members. If the hon. Lady had been present for most of the debate she would have heard the additional powers under the Maastricht agreement referred to on numerous occasions. I am well aware of them, having read that agreement dozens of times. Indeed, I am alarmed at them because they transfer further powers from our national Parliament to Strasbourg. The proposals before the House are alarming because they change the procedure for changing United Kingdom constituency boundaries. In two respects they create concern. First, the Boundary Commission will not play a role. Instead, there will be a boundary committee. Secondly, the public will not have an opportunity at a public inquiry to express their views on the recommended revised constituency boundaries.

In so far as the first concern applies to us in the Ulster Unionist party, we were encouraged by the Secretary of State's speech this afternoon. He made it clear that, to a large extent, the role of the committees would be similar to that of the Boundary Commission and that, in practice, boundary commissioners could well serve on the committees and the committees would apply the same criteria as the Boundary Commission. In that respect, our anxiety has been overcome to a large extent.

Our anxiety remains about the lack of a public contribution to the procedure--the refusal to have public inquiries into the recommendations of these boundary committees. I require the Minister who will reply to spell out more carefully and to persuade us on the Ulster Unionist Benches that there is not enough time between now and the European Parliament election in June 1994 to

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have public inquiries before reaching a decision on the final boundaries of these European constituencies. We need satisfaction on that.

We in the Ulster Unionist party recognise that time is running out. Luckily, the new boundaries for European constituencies in the United Kingdom do not apply to us in Northern Ireland. Therefore, we can prepare for the forthcoming European elections. We have advertised already for our candidates and within a few weeks we shall close the list. I am arranging meetings this autumn in my constituency for the European elections. I assume that other parties in the House also want to get on with the election machinery. They cannot do so until we know what the constituency boundaries are in England and Wales. Therefore, I recognise the Government's case that a sense of urgency is required in deciding these new boundaries.

We certainly subscribe to a uniform electoral system for the European Parliament throughout Europe and certainly here in the United Kingdom. We are moving towards that in stages. The hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing) referred to the De Gucht report. It implies a gradual movement towards a common electoral system in Europe, yet we do not have one in the United Kingdom. Paragraph 3 of article 138 of the Maastricht agreement states :

"The European Parliament shall draw up proposals for elections by direct universal suffrage in accordance with a uniform procedure in all Member States."

That is what we in the Ulster Unionist party should like to see. How can we debate having a common system with the European Parliament when we do not even have one here in the United Kingdom? We have a gerrymandered system. In one part of the United Kingdom, 500,000 people are required to elect one MEP and in another part, Northern Ireland, only 300,000 people are required to elect an MEP. We have had an explanation. The cat was let out of the bag by the hon. Member for Hendon, South when he said that it was rigged in Northern Ireland for sectarian reasons to ensure that a Catholic was elected. That is an insult to the population of Northern Ireland, but that was the sectarian thinking behind the Conservative party when it decided to give Northern Ireland more seats than it deserved on a numerical basis.

Mr. Peter Lloyd : The right hon. Gentleman's memory must have slipped, because it was the Labour Government and Lord Callaghan who brought in the legislation making arrangements for the European elections in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Taylor : It was certainly a Labour Government who had the full support of the Conservative party, and the Conservative party supports it tonight. I shall give way to the Minister if he wishes to dissociate himself from that. The Minister remains seated and refuses to comment, confirming my point that the Conservative party supports the idea of the sectarian allocation of seats in Northern Ireland rather than a fair allocation throughout the United Kingdom. That unfair allocation of seats affects the whole of the European Parliament. That point was made by the leader of the Scottish National party. Scotland is under-represented in the European Parliament, though not on the basis of its representation from the United Kingdom, and I do not agree with that. Scotland has fair

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representation when compared with England and Wales. The Government's new proposals are fair on the basis of numbers for Scotland, Wales and England. But Scotland is unfairly treated when compared with other sovereign nations. It is unfair that Scotland should have only eight seats for 5 million people while Denmark has 16 seats for 5 million people. That is not equity, fair representation or fair play.

When we discuss a uniform electoral system for European elections within the United Kingdom and the European Community, we must ensure that if there is to be an increase in respect for the European Parliament--there is not much respect for it at present--it must be seen to be really democratic. Representation must be fair throughout the European Community. Under the new proposals recommended by the Minister tonight, only 60,000 voters will be required in Luxembourg to elect one MEP, while 800,000 voters in Germany will be required to elect only one MEP. That is neither a democratic forum nor a fair electoral system and it creates a Parliament that is not representative of the people of Europe.

We are creating a Parliament with more powers over this nation and other Parliaments of Europe, but that Parliament is undemocratic.

Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South) : Before my right hon. Friend develops that point, may I ask him whether he accepts that to move to a concept of a list system with proportionate numbers required to elect a person to represent constituencies in this nation would be wrong and undemocratic if that list were so limited that smaller, regional parties could not be elected?

Mr. Taylor : Yes, we can have list systems on a national or regional basis. Both types of system apply at present in the European parliamentary elections, depending on the country. For example, Belgium has two regional list systems whereas Denmark has just one national list system, so the systems vary. The United Kingdom would have to ensure that its distinctive regions--Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland especially--had the right to have their own representatives elected.

However, if the United Kingdom has a national list system we shall eventually have Ulster Unionist candidates standing in Glasgow, Birmingham, Liverpool and London because there are at least a million Ulstermen living in Britain. The same could be said for Scottish nationalists. The choice is between regional lists or so-called provincial parties entering the national political scene. Looking ahead, to give the European Parliament greater respect among the peoples of Europe, the electoral system must be uniform, which means one man, one vote and that one vote must have equal value throughout Europe. It is not right that Luxembourg should have six seats and that 60,000 people should be able to elect one MEP there, whereas it now takes nearly a million people in Germany to elect one MEP.

May I add my support to those who have mentioned the position of Gibraltar? It is outrageous that, although Gibraltar joined the European Community in 1973--long before Spain joined--it still has no voice or representation other than an honorary voluntary group of Members of the European Parliament who look after its interests in that Assembly. In recent years, since Spain joined, there has been a form of discrimination against Gibraltar and it has not been given its full rights. The Government have a

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responsibility for Gibraltar and should try to ensure that it has a means of expressing its interest within the elected bodies of Europe and is treated as a full member of the European Community. The Ulster Unionist party is concerned about the Bill. We hope that the Minister of State, in his reply, will assure us that there is an urgency to get the legislation in operation and the boundaries confirmed quickly. We hope that he will assure us that this is simply a one-off and that never again will a committee decide the boundaries. I hope that we shall return to decisions being made by boundary commissioners with public inquiries.

The point made earlier about future member countries joining the European Parliament was simply kite flying. It should be recalled that, when new members such as Spain, Portugal and Greece joined, there was no question of changing the number of seats allocated to the United Kingdom. Those remained at 81. The new countries were simply given their own seats but the existing countries' seats did not change.

8.27 pm

Mr. Quentin Davies (Stamford and Spalding) : It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor). I agreed with much of what he said, but I was surprised--as were other hon. Members on both sides of the House, to judge from their facial reactions--by his statement that the European Parliament has no legislative powers. My hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Currie) rightly picked him up on that and said that it has the power of veto. It now has distinct legislative powers in formulating European directives, which is another word for European laws. Article 189, paragraphs a, b and c, of the Maastricht treaty set out in considerable detail how those procedures will work. The Parliament has always had legislative powers, but it now has very real powers and I hope that it will use them.

Most of the rest of what the right hon. Gentleman said seemed to be sensible. He expressed some concern, which I share, at any change being introduced into the system for deciding on constituency boundaries in this country. We are all proud of being the oldest successful democracy in the world and of the integrity of our system. We are proud that such ills as gerrymandering do not apply in our country.

There is a great deal of public confidence in the impartiality and effectiveness of the Boundary Commission, although some of us may be inconvenienced by its proposals and decisions. I am inconvenienced by its latest proposal, which aims to cut my constituency in half. I do not like that at all. It is rather like an umpire's ruling : one has to decide whether the ruling suits one's temporary convenience or whether it is based on a fair interpretation of the rules. As the right hon. Member for Strangford said, the Government's proposals follow as closely as possible, in the limited time scale, the system that the Boundary Commission generally uses to determine United Kingdom constituency boundaries. That is reassuring. We have also been assured that this is simply a one-off--the only occasion on which this new system will be implemented--and that thereafter the Boundary Commission will resume its normal role.

There has been much inevitable experiment in the creation of the Community. There have been many

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constitutional changes, the most recent of which was the Maastricht treaty, and in 12 years the European Parliament has moved from indirect to direct elections. It is not at all scandalous or shocking that there is to be one last anomaly before we move to the new system.

I was pleased that the right hon. Gentleman acknowledged on behalf of his party that the Government proposals are fair for the United Kingdom. There was a desperate try-on by hon. Members who suggested that we should use this opportunity further to enhance the existing bias in favour of Scotland by giving it an extra seat, although Scotland is clearly over-represented in the European Parliament and, indeed, in this Parliament. I am glad that the Government resisted the temptation to make such an irrational move.

I was equally in agreement with the right hon. Gentleman in his strictures that the Community is still insufficiently democratic. One of the impressive features of the Community is that it brings together 12 countries which have in common a genuine and strong commitment to democracy. In many ways, that commitment is more vocal and explicit in those member states which have not been able to take that for granted for as long as we have. Democracy is the fundamental principle of political life that we wish to retain.

There is some irony in the fact that in many ways the Community is a travesty of democracy. An enormous amount of power resides in the Commission, which is not elected and is not in any direct sense democratically accountable. However, I am pleased that in future it will be more subject to the oversight of the European Parliament than it has been in the past. A great deal of power also resides in the Council of Ministers, which is rather like an 18th century cabal, meeting behind closed doors and taking decisions on behalf of people without exposing the arguments which lead to its conclusions. There has been a significant improvement in the Council's workings, thanks to the British initiative at the Edinburgh summit. It has been decided that in some of its legislative law-making sessions the Council of Ministers will have open public sessions. That is a great improvement.

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. Will the hon. Gentleman explain how his remarks are relevant to the Second Reading of the Bill that is before us?

Mr. Davies : When discussing how the European Parliament is to be elected, it is important to be clear about what that Parliament is. It has been suggested that that Parliament is not a law-making body.

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. That is not in the Bill.

Mr. Davies : I think you will agree, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the system for election to the European Parliament must be viable and democratic. In that context, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall), who in his excellent speech set out a strong case for adopting national lists--an ill which besets some of our Community partners. I hope that we shall not introduce that. My hon. Friend forcefully set out some of the well-known objections to a system of national lists or proportional representation. Such systems greatly increase the power of the party machines. That is undersirable in itself. It also reduces the accountability of elected representatives, who have force only if they are

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responsible to a specified body of electors. That is the direct relationship which exists in this country, and long may we preserve it in national and European elections.

A PR and national lists system is profoundly subversive to the sense of responsibility required of those who hold elected office in a democracy. It is no accident that the French national delegation to the European Parliament has an appalling attendance record. I do not wish that to be interpreted as chauvinistic because I am a great admirer and lover of France, but Committees of the European Parliament often find themselves in court because representatives from France and other countries have not turned up.

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has got the message. His remarks are not relevant to what we are discussing.

Mr. Davies : I acknowledge that, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I am grateful to you for not stopping me earlier. I thought that the points were worth making.

Perhaps I may be permitted to take this opportunity to congratulate the Government on seizing the chance at the Edinburgh summit to negotiate an increase in the number of British seats. It would have been possible for the new German La"nder to be accommodated without Britain enjoying an increase in representation. The Government have been extremely effective negotiators throughout the Maastricht process and in other contexts and, as good negotiators sometimes must, they have seized the chance and brought to the House an extremely good deal. I shall be proud to support it in the Lobby.

8.37 pm

Mr. Geoffrey Hoon (Ashfield) : The Bill is a direct consequence of the reunification of Germany. It became inevitable when East Germany became part of a united Germany that it would expect some representation in the European Parliament. Despite the inevitability of that, it is clear that the increase in German representation has caused difficulty at intergovernmental conferences, and at subsequent meetings of the Council of Ministers. That is because, historically, the larger European Community countries have enjoyed, whatever the size of their population in precise mathematical terms, essentially the same representation in the European Parliament.

For the moment, Germany, Italy, France and the United Kingdom each has 81 members in the European Parliament. Although there is some relationship between a country's population and its representation in that Parliament, it is not based on a precise mathematical formula. Larger countries have more members than smaller countries. Luxembourg is hugely over-represented. It has been allowed six seats, to provide some political diversity in its representation. Those six MEPs represent a population that is rather smaller than that in a single United Kingdom European constituency. In that context, the argument about Scotland is relevant, because the representation for Luxembourg represents that country's nationhood. Scotland should also be afforded representation according to its sense of nationhood.

Scottish Members of the European Parliament work conscientiously on behalf of their constituents. I know

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how much they want the boundaries to be redrawn so that there can be an extra seat for Scotland. It is right that those who have urged that should be respected.

Mr. Dalyell : Once again, there is no representative here from the Scottish Office. There was an obligation on the Scottish Office to ensure that a representative attended this debate, because it gave clear promises that that would happen. Had it not made that promise, matters might have been different. It made that promise at a time when it wanted to get something else through the House.

Mr. Hoon : I am sure that my hon. Friend's point will have been noted by those on the Treasury Bench.

The inevitability of the decision in principle to give Germany additional representation was clear as long ago as 1990, and the decision in practice to implement that was taken as long ago as December, at the Edinburgh summit. Hon. Members on both sides of the House had the clear expectation that, once the decision had been taken, the appropriate Bill would be introduced quickly. Indeed, I remember the Prime Minister answering a question about that at the time. We all expected the debate that we are having today, some six months later, to take place much earlier, possibly before the Christmas recess.

Despite everyone knowing that the changes had to be made before June next year--a limited time scale that has already been referred to--it is now July, less than a year before the next European elections. The Government have sat on their hands for the past six months, and have not taken the position seriously. The Government's rather ineffectual reason for delay has been the pressure of legislation since last December. They will have to come up with a better explanation than that, especially in view of their assertion that, at this late stage, there is no time to put the matter before the boundary commissioners. If that is true, why did they not introduce the Bill much earlier?

Examination of the Bill leaves us sceptical about the Government's real intentions and motivations. The European parliamentary constituency committees will have members appointed by the Home Secretary, on terms and conditions established by the Home Secretary and, where relevant, even paid by the Home Secretary. Any doubt about the potential for Government interference in the work of the committees will be banished after reading the schedule to the Bill. Earlier in the debate, there was some discussion about the procedure to be adopted by the committees, and we are concerned about what the Government have in mind. The first stage of the procedure set out in the schedule is that the committee should submit a report on the draft boundaries that it recommends. Paragraph 6 requires that the report should contain the name of the suggested constituency. Thereafter, the report must be laid before Parliament, with a draft Order in Council.

At that stage, the Home Secretary has the opportunity to make modifications. We are told that such a provision is included in all Boundary Commission legislation. However, it is unsatisfactory to have it included in this Bill, because, if the Government have their way, there will be no public hearings on the recommendations. Simply because that provision has been included in previous legislation does not mean that on this unique occasion--or so we are told--there is any necessity to afford the Home Secretary the opportunity to make changes without reference back to the committees.

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Not only will the Home Secretary have the opportunity to make modifications after receipt of the report, but paragraph 8(1) provides that he can then make further consequential changes --again without reference back to the committees. Thereafter, the report will come before the House, which will also have the opportunity to make changes.

When the Minister replies, I hope that he will explain why paragraph 8(6), which prohibits any judicial review of the process, is necessary. The Home Secretary's fingerprints are all over the procedure. Not only are the Government anxious to ensure that they get their own way about how the committees are constituted and how they work, but they are excluding the possibility of a legal challenge to any of the recommendations once they are published. An extraordinary range of powers will be available to the Home Secretary.

Mr. Peter Lloyd : In case I do not reach the hon. Gentleman's speech when I reply, as he is rather far down the list of speakers, I want to tell him that the real reason for not having the judicial review process is that the House will have the last word on whether or not to accept the recommendations.

However, it could be possible--some have intimated as much tonight--that those who do not want the extra seats to be taken up, by this or any other country, will embark on a series of judicial reviews that could take us past the date by which the legislation must be in place if we and other countries are to implement the agreement. It is a protective measure.

Mr. Hoon : I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation, but perhaps the Government should have thought of that a little earlier in the process. There have been judicial reviews of previous Boundary Commission decisions. That is the sort of protection that is afforded to citizens in a democratic society, and it is what we expect when we have an independent judicial system.

The Government's explanation would not be wholly convincing to someone looking at the Bill's proposals for the redrawing of boundaries in a democratic society. Without knowing the background and the context, and without the benefit of the Minister's explanation, that person would have some doubts about the integrity of our system for drawing up boundaries.

The purpose of having an independent Boundary Commission--a system that is admired throughout the world--is to ensure that we produce not only boundaries that are fair but, crucially, boundaries that are seen to be fair. I regret that I am not satisfied that the committees will achieve that.

This is the first use of ad hoc arrangements for some considerable time. Boundaries used to be reviewed on an ad hoc basis, but since the second world war we have avoided that. It is unfortunate that the Government are now reverting to the sort of practice that they and every other post-war Governments have abandoned.

A further point is relevant to the shortage of time that has been caused by the Government's delay in introducing the Bill. The consequence of the current boundary review for the United Kingdom Parliament is that there will have to be a further European constituency review. Not only will those boundaries have to be redrawn in time for the 1994 election, but when the boundary review for this House is completed, the Government will then be

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statutorily required to review the European boundaries again. There will be two sets of changes, one in 1994 and one in the period leading up to 1999. That is unfortunate in terms of the integrity and cohesiveness of the European constituencies.

The real reason for the delay in introducing the Bill is clear from today's Order Paper. There are 25 signatures on the reasoned amendment tabled by the Government's internal opponents, the Maastricht rebels. The Government were not prepared to introduce this Bill during the Committee stage of the Maastricht Bill, because they thought that they would lose. It is interesting that the Government are still concerned that they will lose, and are prepared to make certain concessions because they know that they cannot command their own majority in the House.

It seems to me that the Government have avoided bringing forward legislation on a matter of constitutional significance because they have no confidence in their ability to command a majority of their own party. That is a very poor reason for delaying the progress of the legislation and to prevent the public from being engaged in consultation on the nature of the boundary review. It is a poor reason to put before the country.

8.50 pm

Mr. Michael Bates (Langbaurgh) : I am grateful for opportunity to speak in tonight's important debate. Before addressing myself to clause 2, which particularly interests me, I shall make a few general comments within the close boundaries that you have set out, Madam Deputy Speaker.

The top point that we need to recognise is that the Bill represents an opportunity for the United Kingdom to have six additional seats and voices in the European Parliament. Most people would accept that as good and worthy. I have not heard it stated at any point in the debate that there is no need to review the structures and allocations of the European parliamentary constituencies.

In the light of these new seats, it is clear that the unification of Germany resulted in a disproportionate number of electors per constituency in Germany compared with other areas of the European Community. We were all in favour of embracing East Germany. The policy goes back two decades or more--ever since Germany was divided--that, when East Germany, with its huge economic and social problems, joined the European Community, we should ensure that those people had representation. That was borne out in the 18 additional seats to be given to Germany.

In the same way, I fervently believe that, when we enlarge the European Community still further, those new member states should have voices in the European Parliament.

It is critical that we have the extra seats, because one of the key elements of the Maastricht treaty is to increase the role and responsibility of the European Parliament. Clearly, if it is to have more power and responsibility, I for one would welcome additional representatives from the United Kingdom to ensure that our case is put strongly.

Anyone who would seek to delay the progress of the Bill still further and ensure that we do not have fair representation in the European Parliament should seriously question his commitment to the democratic process within the European Community.

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Another important consideration--this is where I focus on clause 2--is the tight timetable to which we are working. The committees will be established after Second Reading, and will present their initial recommendations in late July and early August, and then there will be a period of consultation during the autumn.

The period of consultation is critical. Although there will not be the traditional public meetings, due to the short time scale, there will be an opportunity for people to make representations. Many hon. Members and political parties and organisations with an interest in this matter will take the opportunity to submit written representations to be considered during the consultation period in the autumn.

The measures have to be in place by next June for the elections to take place. Reference has been made to the progress which has already been made in preparing for the elections. The tight timetable requires a curtailing and condensing of the usual consultation period, while paying due regard to the views and aspirations of the people they are seeking to represent.

Mr. Andrew Rowe (Mid-Kent) : My hon. Friend is making an important point. Is it not a clear and reassuring example of how the creation of the European Community has made international co-operation and partnership much easier that the Germans have accepted without much demur a much larger electorate for each of their seats than any of the other countries in the Community ? At a time when many people are concentrating on the differences of opinion between countries in the European Community, that is a reassuring example of the way in which co-operation is growing among the partners.

Mr. Bates : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. He is absolutely right. Many people will recognise that one of the great triumphs of the period of the British presidency of the European Community was achieving just that--a period of consultation in which difficult legislation containing difficult proposals which, five, 10 or 15 years ago, would have been the source of great consternation and division within the Community, was decided sensibly and fairly.

It is true that Germany has a population per MEP of nearly 1 million. It is also true that Luxembourg has about 66,000 people per constituency. Those points are clear and accepted. One of the advantages of the additional six seats will be to reduce the average size of the European parliamentary constituency.

Mrs. Currie : My hon. Friend is describing accurately some of the imbalances which are causing injustice in the size of the parliamentary constituencies throughout Europe. Will he comment on the imbalance between the electorate of 594,000 in the North Chiltern seat which at the moment is called South Bedfordshire, which I have been asked to fight next June and look forward to doing so very much indeed, with the seat in the highlands and islands, which was referred to earlier in the debate and which has an electorate of 327, 000 ? Does he agree that we have a great deal to consider in Britain before we look at other countries ? Does he share my concern that, were the Opposition amendment to be accepted, that imbalance would get worse ?

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Mr. Bates : My hon. Friend is quite right to make that point. I place alongside my hon. Friend's example, as evidence before the House, my own constituency in the European context of Cleveland and Yorkshire, North which has an electorate of 580,297. That begs a comparison with other constituencies. Today we have focused on the representation of Scotland, of Wales and of England. There is a fair point to make about representation.

The hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing) spoke about the geographical size of some of the Scottish constituencies. However, there are also some fair- sized English constituencies. One example is Cleveland and Yorkshire, North. From Sedburgh in one corner to Loftus in the other corner is a distance of 85 miles. There are some fairly sizeable constituencies which require representation just as much as others do.

I point out that many of us, especially in the north-east of England, which is an area in great need of development although it has benefited from much already, are aware that we do not have a seat at the Cabinet table. Scotland has a seat there. Unlike Wales, we do not have a seat at the Cabinet table. Scotland and Wales have more representation than the regions.

People say that Scotland and Wales are identifiable communities with a strong history. However, the kingdom of Northumbria and the people of Yorkshire point to their history, which we have been considering in the context of the Local Government Commission. The history of Yorkshire goes back at least a millennium. The history of Northumbria goes back even further, to Bede and Cuthbert, the people who brought Christianity, culture and all things that are good to this country. They deserve to be recognised, too.

I believe that, within the time scale available, the Bill is by far the best way forward. I urge all hon. Members who believe that this country should have a strong voice in the European Parliament, which in our heart of hearts we all believe, to realise that to delay matters further would be simply to play into the hands of and give a stronger voice to our European competitors within the Community. 9 pm

Mr. George Stevenson (Stoke-on-Trent, South) : Despite the Home Secretary's complacent attitude when opening the debate, the Bill is dangerous to the democratic process. Given the situation, no one argues that there is no need to speed up the process, but what cannot be justified, although Conservative Members have tried to justify it today, is an abandonment of the democratic process. That is the decision that the House will be asked to take on Second Reading. The Bill will bring the whole system into disrepute. We are told that the additional seats must be subject to a committee system and not to the Boundary Commission system. We are also told that the committees may include members of the Boundary Commission. If the Boundary Commission members are so busy, how will they find time to be members of the committees as well? The Minister may deal with that point later.

We are told that we need the committees because of a problem of time scale. That is an important problem, but it is not insuperable. My hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Mr. Blair) effectively and comprehensively destroyed that argument. The committees will be

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Government-appointed. They will be responsible directly to the Home Secretary. If we believe that there will not be many objections, or that the objections will not be complicated and forcefully pursued, we delude ourselves. In the face of those possibilities, we shall rely, according to the Bill, on the Home Secretary's decision. There will be no public inquiry and no public scrutiny.

Various hon. Members have told us, "Don't worry. It is one off. The Government do not intend to use this procedure again." Hon. Members who are satisfied with those assurances may be willing to support the Government in the Lobbies this evening. Given what has happened, and the problems with which we are dealing, I am rather sceptical. We may rue the day that we gave the Government such a comprehensive power. Why have the Government, for some reason or another, chosen to delay the introduction of the Bill? The European Parliament knew about the six additional seats as long as June 1992, because the change was outlined in reports given to it. Those at the Edinburgh summit knew about the additional seats in December 1992, yet the Bill was not produced until 11 June this year.

I do not accept the argument that that is a reasonable delay. The real reason may be that the Government were preoccupied with the parliamentary Boundary Commission. They may have insisted that it got to work on the parliamentary boundaries because they saw some advantage in revised parliamentary boundaries. Whatever the reasons for that unjustified delay, they have seriously reduced the time scale available to us in which to consider these important matters. Furthermore, the Prime Minister's statement last December, that the Boundary Commission provisions would apply to these additional seats, has been cynically rejected and is not worth the paper upon which it is written.

The distribution of these seats is critical. When the Bill was published, the Secretary of State was quoted as saying that he had decided that the extra seats would be distributed on the basis of arithmetical fairness. That seems to be neat and tidy.

Mrs. Currie : The hon. Gentleman has strong feelings about the delay and wonders whether we should proceed with a system that does not include public inquiries. As he is still a serving Member of the European Parliament, would he in any way be happy about a delay tht prevented us from taking on board these additional six seats? What would happen in the European Parliament to the influence of this country, whichever party held those seats, if we were not to proceed with the Bill?

Mr. Stevenson : The hon. Lady has not been here for the whole of the debate. I said at the beginning of my speech that the time scale is important, but my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield comprehensively destroyed that argument and put forward a credible alternative that would avoid the danger to which the hon. Lady referred.

The Secretary of State said that he had decided that the additional seats would be distributed on the basis of arithmetical fairness. That seems to be neat and tidy, but it is a seriously flawed and misconceived basis. The Bill provides for the setting up of the committees, but it also provides that they will be bound by the criteria in the 1978

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Act. That Act was based on the Select Committee's second report on direct elections, which was considered by the House inand Northern Ireland for rounding up the numbers and also for the size of areas in those parts of the United Kingdom, and the scattered population. The Government seem to have abandoned that principle for Scotland. If the principle was fair then, it is fair now.

The additional seat for Scotland for which we on this side of the House argue would reduce the number of electors in each constituency to about 55,000. That is neither unmanageable nor unacceptable. An additional seat for Scotland would not compromise the principle of fair allocation.

Additional seats for certain European Community countries, including the United Kingdom, are not the result of a comprehensive, detailed, European- wide study of arithmetical fairness throughout the Community. Even those who sit on the Treasury Bench have not argued that that is the case, and it certainly is not the case. It is the result of a political imperative, following the reunification of Germany. It has resulted in 18 additional seats for the Federal Republic of Germany, seats which are well deserved. We could not allow 17 million people to be disfranchised. Germany was right to want those additional seats, and that is what it achieved. However, the representation will be on the basis that all of the areas of Germany are represented effectively.

Although I do not agree with some of the comments about proportional representation that were made by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker), he was right in this regard : if the Secretary of State had based the Bill on an arithmetical exercise, we would have no additional seats whatever. That cannot be the right basis on which to approach this critical issue, and that is another reason why I believe that the Secretary of State's proposals are flawed.

As well as the political imperative, the real objective of the additional seats may be to ensure, understandably, that there is a better balance of voting in the European Parliament, and that we do not allow one member state with additional seats to have an unfair advantage in the European Parliament. At some stage, someone will talk about qualified majority voting in the Council of Ministers, although we are not deliberating on that this evening.

The exercise therefore is not about resolving arithmetical anomalies or the size of the constituencies and it never was. Therefore, to use this arithmetical base to exclude Scotland is irrelevant and completely unjustified. If that were the object of the exercise, how could Luxembourg and Denmark be ignored?

I argue strongly that the basis of the Secretary of State's argument is fundamentally flawed. That fundamental mistake permeates the Bill. If the House grants the Bill a Second Reading this evening, it will endorse that fundamental mistake, which the Secretary of State is asking us to endorse.

I believe that the House is faced with simple but very important and critical decisions. We can go along with these unnecessary, unjustified committees, which are answerable to the Secretary of State, abandon vital safeguards to the public interest, simply ignore the tried

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