House of Commons Hansard Debates for 5 May 1993

Local Government Services

10. Mr. Maxton : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when next he intends to meet COSLA to discuss local government services.

Mr. Stewart : I addressed the annual conference of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities on 26 March. My right hon. Friend and I will be meeting the convention later this year as part of the normal consultation on local government finance matters.

Mr. Maxton : If the Government insist on continuing with the unwanted and unnecessary reform of local government, does the Minister agree that all the existing services provided by local government should continue to be provided by a direct democratically elected local government? If so, does he believe that he should stop his

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open and active campaigning for the retention of Eastwood district council as a single absurd unitary authority which made a nonsense of the consultation process on local government reform? Does he accept that the logic of his argument means that Eastwood should be part of a Greater Glasgow council that is democratically elected? Does he also agree that it would be obscenely unfair if his wealthy constituents in Giffnock and Whitecraigs should sponge off my poorer constituents in Castlemilk when they use the facilities provided by Glasgow?

Mr. Stewart : May I first wish the hon. Gentleman many happy returns on his birthday? I am sure that hon. Members will agree that he is wearing well. He will not be surprised to learn that I wholly disagree with him and deprecate his remarks, as do, for example, the Labour leadership in Strathkelvin district council. I suggest that he consults them on his plans for a Greater Glasgow. Objectively, one might look at what has happened, for example, to Roukenglen Park. Glasgow district council wanted to walk away from it, but it is now a major excellent asset for the whole community under Eastwood district council. That is a classic example of the success of Conservative local government policies in action.

Mr. Oppenheim : When my hon. Friend meets COSLA, will he discuss the employment practices of Scottish councils? While English Members find many Scottish customs both colourful and quaint, one that we find extremely strange is the practice of issuing green forms to general job applicants and pink forms to applicants who apply through councillors or who are relatives of councillors at Monklands council. Does that novel application of the share and share alike principle account for the fact that no fewer than 22 close relatives of councillors are employed at Monklands council?

Mr. Stewart : I think the figure may be higher than that. My hon. Friend has rightly highlighted matters of major concern to people in local government in Scotland. What is absolutely astonishing is that the shadow Secretary of State and the leader of the Labour party have remained silent on this matter for months, even though it directly affects their constituents at least one way or the other. They are capable of commenting on anything except this matter which affects their constituents.

Water and Sewerage Services

11. Mr. Welsh : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to announce the outcome of the consultation on the future of water and sewerage services ; and if he will make a statement.

14. Mr. Worthington : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to make a statement on the future of water services in Scotland.

Sir Hector Monro : My right hon. Friend will make an announcement on the future of water and sewerage services in Scotland in due course.

Mr. Welsh : Is the Minister aware of the devastation caused by the disconnection of domestic water supplies to tens of thousands of individuals and families in England and Wales? If so, why did he say in a letter to me that the Government will consider such powers in Scotland? Will

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he give an absolute guarantee that there will be no disconnection of household water supplies and that this obscenity will never be visited on Scotland?

Sir Hector Monro : I am really rather surprised that the hon. Gentleman should ask a question on water when he is quoted in The Scotsman as saying :

"sabotage could mean everything from turning a tap off to blowing a pipe right up when we threaten, we will deliver."

I have never heard such arrogance from a Member of Parliament about civil disobedience on the issue of water supply. I made clear in an earlier answer the Government's exact position on water disconnection.

Mr. Worthington : Can the Minister name any people or organisations in Scotland who have written to him supporting water privatisation?

Sir Hector Monro : Yes, indeed, I could. If the hon. Gentleman goes to the Library he can wade through the list and see the number of people who have supported it. I accept that many more have been against privatisation, but all the Opposition Members jump to conclusions. They think that the horse called privatisation is past the post. The fact is that there are still eight or nine other runners in the starting stall. It will be up to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to decide later this summer which style we shall use to bring good quality water services to Scotland.

Mr. Kynoch : Does my hon. Friend agree that, rather than scaremongering with this emotive claptrap, the hon. Member for Angus, East (Mr. Welsh) should address the main issue of how to fund £5 billion of capital expenditure on water services and sewage treatment during the next 10 to 15 years? Does he agree that the most important decision to be taken is how to fund that expenditure at the least possible cost to the taxpayer?

Sir Hector Monro : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I do not know why the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. McLeish) cannot understand the difference between£2.5 billion and £5 billion. We have to accept that, whatever happens, water charges are steadily increasing and have increased dramatically in the past few years. It is the duty of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to provide the best service in the future and to provide the best quality water and sewerage in Scotland. That is what we will do and we shall announce how later this summer.

Mr. Raymond S. Robertson : Will my hon. Friend confirm to the House that, whatever option Her Majesty's Government take up for the future of Scotland's water and sewerage, it will not be the option suggested by the hon. Member for Angus, East (Mr. Welsh)--bomber Welsh--who advocated blowing up water pipes throughout Scotland?

Mr. Welsh : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. That is disgraceful.

Madam Speaker : Order. As the hon. Gentleman knows, I cannot take a point of order at this stage. I do not wish to take up time. However, we should watch the language that we use in the Chamber. Tolerant language at all times is the hallmark of good parliamentary debate. I hope that the hon. Gentleman and others will remember that.

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Sir Hector Monro : I note what my hon. Friend has said. Anyone who looks at Library cuttings of what the hon. Member for Angus, East (Mr. Welsh) and the Scottish National party have said will know that what my hon. Friend says is true.

Mr. Welsh : On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker : Order. I will take the hon. Gentleman's point of order at the end of Question Time.

Mr. Michael J. Martin : On two occasions here today, the Minister has mentioned that privatisation is not necessarily the solution that the Government are looking for. May I put it on record that on two Saturdays in one part of my constituency alone--Dennistoun--6,000 people put their name to a petition saying that they did not want privatisation? That included three French visitors who visited Duke street. Even they said that they did not want it. So there is no one in Dennistoun who wants privatisation.

Sir Hector Monro : I would much rather drink the water in Dennistoun than the water anywhere in France. But I will certainly bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said.

Boundary Reviews

12. Mr. Ian Bruce : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on boundary reviews for both Westminster and European elections in relation to Scotland.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : Under section 2(2) of the Boundary Commissions Act 1992, the Boundary Commission for Scotland has a statutory duty to complete its fourth general review of parliamentary constituencies in Scotland by 31 December 1994. The commission will undertake a review of European parliamentary constituency boundaries in Scotland immediately thereafter.

Mr. Bruce : Does my hon. Friend agree with me that one of the strengths of the Union is the equitable way in which it should treat all its citizens? On the basis that very large numbers of Scots have now migrated to their colony of England and are much involved in the government of that nation, why should those Scots be disfranchised because their vote is worth less in England than it is in Scotland? Will the Scottish Office please give instructions to the boundary commission that the next time the boundaries are reviewed it should work on the average constituency size for the whole of the United Kingdom?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : The general answer to my hon. Friend is that the Scottish electoral quota takes account of Scotland's status as a small nation of large, sparsely populated and inaccessible areas. I have good news for him in one respect. Since 1918, the number of Scots constituencies has increased by one, which is less than 2 per cent., whereas since 1948 the number of English seats has increased by 18--3.4 per cent.--and in Wales by two--5.3 per cent. I suggest to my hon. Friend that the changes in population since 1918, when the present arrangements were set up, are broadly reflected in changes in representation in the House. In other words, if England's population is swelling, England may have a case for more Members of Parliament, but there is no need to alter the number of Scots.

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Mr. Ernie Ross : More seriously, will the Minister ensure, first, that the Boundary Commission for Scotland has sufficient funds to carry out the important task on which it is presently engaged and, secondly, that a specific household survey is carried out by electoral registration officers throughout Scotland to ensure that the registers are up to date?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : Yes, I will make every effort to ensure that both the requests of the hon. Member are acted upon.

Committee of the Regions

13. Mr. Norman Hogg : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to announce the details of Scottish representation on the Committee of the Regions ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Lang : The Government are still considering the detailed arrangements for Scottish representation on the Committee of the Regions.

Mr. Hogg : What is more important to the Secretary of State, his shabby deal with the Scottish National party or the representations that he has received from the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities? Is he aware that yesterday my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) pressed the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office to give the terms of the deal between the Government and the Scottish National party? This information was not forthcoming, either from the Minister or from the hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing) who on that occasion was making a feeble attempt to speak on behalf of the Scottish National party. Will the Secretary of State this afternoon tell us the terms of the agreement with the SNP and end once and for all speculation on this matter?

Mr. Lang : As regards the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, I would certainly expect to be interested in its views about representation on the Committee of the Regions. As regards the deal with the Scottish National party, contents of deals of that kind are confidential and I do not regard it as my job to breach a confidence. What I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that the Scottish National party failed to honour the deal that it offered the Government and therefore the Government regard themselves as under no obligation to it.-- [Interruption.]

Mr. Norman Hogg : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. The answer we have just had to my question is so important for Scottish Members that we must have clarification of it from the Government and from the SNP.-- [Interruption.]

Madam Speaker : Order. I cannot take a point of order at this stage. The hon. Gentleman is in any case not raising a point of order.

Water Charges

15. Mr. Macdonald : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will examine ways of reducing the level of water charges faced by island authorities.

Mr. Stewart : The setting of water charges in the islands is a matter for the islands councils. It would therefore be for the councils to examine ways of reducing the charges.

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There is no statutory basis on which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State can intervene in the setting of charges.

Mr. Macdonald : Does the Minister accept that the island authorities face a particular problem in that they must finance very expensive schemes on the basis of a relatively small population and that this leads to a huge disparity in the costs faced by island consumers compared with those on the mainland? Will he therefore undertake to look at this problem and try to find ways to reduce the disparity and to bring the water charges in the islands more into line with those on the mainland?

Mr. Stewart : The Western Isles has been allocated £3 million for water and sewerage for 1993-94. That allocation has more than doubled in four years. I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that the Western Isles council qualifies for the top rate of grant of 75 per cent. for rural

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water supplies. In the past three years, around £600,000 has been paid to the Western Isles in respect of assistance for eligible schemes, and the council will continue to qualify under particular schemes.

Mr. Matthew Banks : Given that it was necessary to wait for the advent of privatisation to find the £85 million necessary to invest in a badly needed new sewerage treatment plant in my English constituency, will my hon. Friend join me in my enthusiasm that Scotland should benefit as soon as possible from the very many advantages to be gained from privatisation of the water industry?

Mr. Stewart : As my hon. Friend says, there are considerable advantages south of the border from water privatisation. My right hon. Friend will, of course, be considering all the representations he has received on this issue.

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