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House of Commons
Thursday 18 March 1993
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
British Railways Bill
Lords amendments agreed to.
British Waterways Bill
[Lords] (By Order)
Crossrail Bill
(By Order)
East Coast Main Line (Safety) Bill
(By Order)
Greater Manchester (Light RapidTransit System) Bill
[Lords] (By Order)
Woodgrange Park Cemetery Bill
[Lords](By Order)
River Humber (Upper Burcom Cooling Works) Bill
[Lords] (By Order)
Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Thursday 25 March.
British Railways (No. 4) Bill
(By Order)
Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question[8 February], That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Debate to be resumed on Thursday 25 March.
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Oral Answers to Questions
NORTHERN IRELAND
Liquidations (Departmental Debts)
1. Mr. Beggs : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many companies in Northern Ireland have gone into liquidation or bankruptcy while a demand was outstanding for payment of debt owed to a Department of Government, in each of the last three years.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Robert Atkins) : During the year ending 31 March 1993 the number of High Court generated insolvencies, and companies starting creditors' voluntary winding up, will number approximately 655. This compares with 463 in 1991-92 and 457 in 1990 -91. It is estimated that debts owed to Government Departments would be found in at least 90 per cent. of these insolvencies.
Mr. Beggs : I thank the Minister for the information that he has delivered to the House. He highlights how serious the problem is. Will he confirm that it is estimated to cost £9,000 per annum in benefits and lost revenue to keep someone unemployed? Will he give me an assurance today that there will be better departmental consultation to ensure that no arm of government acts on its own to force a liquidation, bearing in mind that 50 per cent. of wind-ups in 1992 in Northern Ireland and 20 per cent. of bankruptcies in that year were as a result of intervention on VAT? I hope that he can give that assurance.
Mr. Atkins : The hon. Gentleman raises a technical point. I should like to give some consideration to it. Clearly, it is not always possible to delay an insolvency or the crash of a company for the time that the hon. Gentleman suggests that it takes to look into it. However, it is not the wish of the Government to put more people out of work than can be avoided in cases such as those of which the hon. Gentleman gives evidence today. If he would drop me a line or perhaps talk to me later about how we can progress, or if there is a particular instance or company about which he is worried, I should be more than happy to take it up.
Dr. Hendron : Will the Secretary of State and the Minister with responsibility for economic development pledge their support for the new survival plan that has been worked out between the Industrial Development Board and Stoy Hayward for the Clarence Clothing company in west Belfast? That company is in an area which is probably one of the blackest unemployment spots in these islands.
Mr. Atkins : I am familiar with the case. The hon. Gentleman will find me particularly sympathetic, although as yet I have not made a final decision.
Republic (Constitutional Changes)
2. Mr. Fabricant : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what assessment he has made of the effects of the proposed constitutional changes in the Republic of Ireland and of the consequent effect on the whole of Ireland.
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The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Sir Patrick Mayhew) : The Irish Government have expressed their willingness to initiate and incorporate constitutional change in the context of an overall political settlement. I welcome this. I believe that it provides an encouraging context for fresh political talks.
Mr. Fabricant : In that connection, does my right hon. and learned Friend agree with me that the comments by Dick Spring on 5 March at the Dublin Mansion House were particularly helpful? Does he further agree that the comments by the United States foreign relations committee recently about a possible investigation into human rights in Northern Ireland were particularly unhelpful?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I was much encouraged by the content and tone of the Tanaiste's speech. It was a most substantial speech which plainly had been carefully weighed.
As for the second part of my hon. Friend's question, I had perhaps better wait to see what may be proposed, but I might properly say that human rights are, indeed, abused in Northern Ireland. They are abused on purpose and with authority. They are thus abused by terrorists pursuing their evil and fruitless campaigns at the behest of their leaders. I sometimes think that if a national of a foreign country were to become their victim--which I would wish on nobody--and were murdered, for example, like woman police constable Colette McMurray at Newry in March last year, or merely deprived of his legs at the hips, like constable Paul Slaine, who was sitting in the car beside her, we would hear rather more about the matter from overseas commentators and rather less unspecific calumny of the brave men and women in the police and Army, who strive to prevent that by every means in their power within the law.
Mr. A. Cecil Walker : When will the British Government challenge the Irish Government's claim over Northern Ireland in an international court, on the basis of article 29 item 3 of the Irish constitution?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : The more promising way to overcome what is without doubt a serious difficulty is to heed what the Tanaiste, Mr. Spring, said recently--that the Irish Government are prepared to put articles 2 and 3 to the Irish people--with a referendum in mind--as part of an overall settlement or accommodation reached during discussions.
Rev. Ian Paisley : Is the Secretary of State of the same mind as his predecessor--that articles 2 and 3 are illegal? Is it not a fact that nowhere from the south of Ireland, including Mr. Spring's recent statement, is there any declaration that that is looked upon as an illegal claim and that anyone is prepared to do away with it?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I have just given my understanding of Mr. Spring's speech in that context and I welcome it very much. Naturally, a claim--which has been described by the Supreme Court of the Irish Republic as a constitutional imperative--to bring the six counties that form part of the United Kingdom, known as Northern Ireland, within the jurisdiction of the Republic, is extremely unhelpful. As matters have been developing in a
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hopeful way, at this stage of our discussions I do not think that the exchange of epithets is very constructive. I prefer to proceed in the way that I suggested.Mr. McNamara : Can the Secretary of State explain the statements in his speech to the area council of the Conservative party in Northern Ireland last weekend? Given the integrationist tenor of the statements, does he repudiate the neutral stance that the Government have been taking over affairs in Northern Ireland?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I really do not know what the hon. Gentleman has in mind. I said that the United Kingdom is already--
Mr. McNamara : I have the speech here.
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I have it here, too, and I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has studied it. If his party committed those who support it in Northern Ireland--there must be a few--to organise as the Conservative party has done, he would have an opportunity to test his policies for a united Ireland on the electorate, but those supporters are not allowed to do so. In my speech, I said that Northern Ireland is already an integral part of the United Kingdom and that I thought that the time had come to move the debate on, away from ill-defined notions such as integration and devolution, and towards considering how Northern Ireland can best be governed, while it remains part of the United Kingdom pursuant to the wish of the majority.
Mr. Peter Bottomley : Most of us would agree with that statement. Could my right hon. and learned Friend pass a message to the Senate foreign relations committee and its sub-committees that the constitutional position is well spelt out in the Anglo-Irish Agreement and that they would be welcome to come here, to Belfast or to Dublin to speak to constitutionally elected politicians and to meet groups such as New Consensus, which are trying to get rid of the killing and to let people live together?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I agree with my hon. Friend. The Anglo-Irish Agreement makes a substantial advance towards a mutual expression of the current status of Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend will have noted, however, that both Governments have said that they would support a new and more broadly based agreement or structure, provided that it secured wide acceptance. As we have made clear, we would wish part of such an agreement to be a shared and unambiguous expression and understanding of Northern Ireland's current status.
Housing Benefit
3. Mr. Clifford Forsythe : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many Housing Executive tenants are receiving housing benefit.
Mr. Atkins : On 5 March 1993, 110,367 Housing Executive tenants were receiving housing benefit.
Mr. Forsythe : Under what legislation is confidential benefit information shared between the Department of Health and Social Security and the Housing Executive, leading on the one hand to many housing benefit claimants losing benefit, and on the other allowing hundreds of giro drops to continue in Northern Ireland?
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Mr. Atkins : As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, my noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State has particular responsibility for this matter. I know that he has been in conversation and correspondence with the hon. Gentleman. I will ensure that the hon. Gentleman's concerns are related to my noble Friend. I suspect that the detail for which the hon. Gentleman is looking requires a detailed letter in response, and that I will try to provide.
Adrian Carroll
4. Mr. Trimble : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps have been taken to review the original police inquiry into the murder of Adrian Carroll in Armagh in 1983 following the judgment of the Court of Appeal in July 1992.
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I have received a range of representations about the case of Mr. Latimer, mostly seeking a further reference--
Mr. Trimble : This is the answer to a different question.
Madam Speaker : Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman replying to question 4?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : That is exactly what I am doing--at least I am attempting to, Madam Speaker.
I have received a range of representations about the case of Mr. Latimer-- which bears upon the murder of Adrian Carroll, referred to in question 4-- mostly seeking a further reference to the Court of Appeal. I have found that none contains material to justify making a reference ; nor has any been found to justify commissioning any review of the original police inquiry into the murder of Mr. Carroll.
Mr. Trimble : Thank you. I fear that questions 4 and 9 may have been too closely linked by the Secretary of State because my question relates to the original police inquiry into the murder of Adrian Carroll in 1983. Does the Secretary of State intend to follow the precedent set in England with regard to the May inquiry and appoint, when the time is appropriate, a judicial inquiry into the conduct of that original investigation so that the whole truth can come out? Does he also agree, in view of the disappointing decision of the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal last summer, that it would not be fair to ask a Northern Ireland judge to head such an inquiry?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I completely repudiate the implication in the hon. Gentleman's last remark. I never make comments on judicial decisions : I think that that is a good principle to be followed by anybody in the House. Nothing has been represented to me that justifies an inquiry into the police investigation.
Mr. Peter Robinson : Will the Secretary of State take it from me that the overwhelming majority of the people of Northern Ireland find it an outrage and a scandal that Neil Latimer is still in prison? Those who have bothered to acquaint themselves with the facts and details of this case recognise that the Crown prosecution witness who gave forensic evidence in the case corrupted the whole of the case for all four of the men who were convicted and not just three of them. Latimer is left as a figleaf behind which the establishment may hide the awful fact that there are policemen who are not perfect and judges who can make mistakes.
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Sir Patrick Mayhew : It is not for me to express a view as to what the majority--overwhelming--or otherwise--of the people in Northern Ireland may consider in this context. I have, in response to many letters I have received about the judgment of the Court of Appeal in July last year, read very carefully again the judgment delivered by the Lord Chief Justice. It is perfectly clear to me that this is a matter which has been gone into with the very greatest care--as the sheer volume of the judgment shows. If I thought that the criteria, which have been long established for making a further reference to the Court of Appeal, had been satisfied in this case, I would have no hesitation in making such a reference. I am perfectly certain, for the reasons I have set out in letters to hon. Members, that those criteria are not satisfied.
Mr. Canavan : Is the Secretary of State aware of the concern on both sides of the House and throughout the country about the possible miscarriage of justice in this case because of the unreliable evidence of witness A and the disgraceful behaviour of the RUC in the whole affair? Has he had the opportunity to study the evidence produced by Mr. Andrew Morton, who conducted an investigation on behalf of the BBC's "Newsnight" programme, and who came to the conclusion that there was no way in which Neil Latimer could have been the author of the statement described in court as his confession? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman therefore refer the case of Neil Latimer back to the Court of Appeal for further consideration?
Sir Patrick Mayhew : The short answer is no. I am aware of the programme to which the hon. Gentleman refers. If it will not take too long, I should like to cite a few lines from the judgment delivered by the Lord Chief Justice--the House will find it of interest : "We are satisfied that the ESDA findings in relation to the interview notes of Latimer do not create a doubt as to the correctness of his convictions, because on his own evidence at the trial as to what happened in the interviews and as to what he said in the interviews, it is clear that on the night of 2-3 December 1983 he confessed to murdering Mr. Carroll. We are further satisfied that those confessions were true and were the confessions of a guilty man and not of an innocent man who, by improper police conduct, was pressed into confessing to a murder which he had not committeed. No one reading the full transcript of the evidence of Latimer at the trial, and reading that transcript in an impartial way and with commonsense can doubt that he was a guilty man".
If any further evidence were put to me that would constitute material of a substantial kind that had not previously been raised before the courts and which gave rise to a possibility that this was an unsafe conviction, I would refer the conviction again to the Court of Appeal--but none has been.
Mr. McNamara : Is the Secretary of State aware that after most terrorist-related offences in Northern Ireland have gone through the Court of Appeal, there is no appeal thereafter and communities generally accept that justice has been done? In this particular case, however, there is a general sense of unease throughout the whole community about the legitimacy of this man remaining in prison. That is why I am concerned : in most cases no one challenges the convictions.
Sir Patrick Mayhew : I do not doubt that that is correct. I have had about 70 letters from hon. Gentlemen
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Sir Patrick Mayhew : Quite so. We have also received about 550 other letters, most of them in a standard form. I quite understand why there has been concern, because in this case four people were originally convicted, of whom three had their convictions overturned by the Court of Appeal. The fourth did not, even though improprieties concerning the police notes in connection with the fourth case were present, just as they had been with the other three.
The purpose and point of the Lord Chief Justice's judgment, however, explaining why Latimer's conviction was not considered unsafe is as follows. Leaving aside the question of the notes prepared by the police, other evidence, including evidence emanating from Latimer himself and confirmed at the trial, made it quite clear, in the opinion of the Court of Appeal, that this was a safe conviction.
Voluntary and Selective Schools
5. Mr. Anthony Coombs : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what proportion of children in Northern Ireland are educated in voluntary or selective schools.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Jeremy Hanley) : Of the total school population--that is primaryand secondary--54 per cent. attend voluntary schools and 39 per cent. of secondary pupils attend selective schools, about 75 per cent. of which are voluntary.
Mr. Coombs : Does my hon. Friend agree that it is extremely significant that a high proportion of children in Northern Ireland attend schools after having been selected either by ability or aptitude? That is accompanied by the fact that in terms of GCSE results, A-level results and staying on rates, results in Northern Ireland are significantly better than those in the rest of the United Kingdom. Does not that have implications for the way in which we organise our education system in the rest of the United Kingdom?
Mr. Hanley : My hon. Friend is right about the excellence of schools in Northern Ireland. Some statistics might bear that out. The House will be interested to know that 32 per cent. of Northern Ireland school leavers achieve at least one A-level compared with 26 per cent. in England ; 75 per cent. leaving grammar school achieve at least one A-level ; 45 per cent. of all school leavers achieve five or more GCSE grades A to C compared with 40 per cent. in England ; over 55 per cent. continue in further or higher education compared with 34 per cent. in England. However, in Northern Ireland more pupils leave school with no GCSE qualifications than in England. I believe that to be a corollary. it is 13 per cent. in Northern Ireland compared to 7 per cent. in England, but the position has greatly improved from 27 per cent. 10 years ago. We must concentrate just as much on that end of the spectrum as on the excellence that is achieved in Northern Ireland education.
Mr. John D. Taylor : Following the recent decision to give 100 per cent. funding for new Roman Catholic voluntary schools, will the Minister assure the people of Northern Ireland that there will be no discrimination and
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that similar 100 per cent. grants will be available to the Protestant churches, such as the Church of Ireland and the Presbyterian Church, if they decide to build their own schools?Mr. Hanley : The right hon. Gentleman is right that Catholic schools have recently been able to apply for 100 per cent. grants, the same as most other schools. That removes discrimination and gives equality of opportunity to the majority of children in Northern Ireland. With that comes a change in the constitution of the schools' boards. As long as schools comply with those constitutional changes they will receive the same grant.
Sir Giles Shaw : Will my hon. Friend take a little further the answer that he gave to the right hon. Member for Strangford (Mr. Taylor)? What proportional grant is given to the relatively few schools that are seeking to be integrated into the education system on a Roman Catholic and a Protestant basis? Is my hon. Friend encouraging the development of such schools?
Mr. Hanley : Yes, indeed, I am helping to encourage the numbers of pupils who attend integrated schools in Northern Ireland. The schools receive the same level of grant. At the moment, they educate about 1 per cent. of all children in Northern Ireland. I believe that they give an excellent education and I hope that their future will be encouraged.
Mr. Stott : The Minister will surely be aware of the deep unease that is felt about curriculum assessment and testing by the teaching profession throughout all the schools in the sector which he has mentioned. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the largest teachers' union in Northern Ireland recently held a ballot in which 95 per cent. of teachers voted in favour of boycotting testing and assessment? When the Minister spoke in the appropriation orders debate a couple of weeks ago he said that he was a listening Minister. Will he listen to the voices of the teachers, as expressed in the ballot on whether testing should take place?
Mr. Hanley : I am in regular contact with the teaching unions. I am extremely pleased that many teachers are trying to use the opportunities that are provided by a pilot year of assessment. They will, therefore, be able to practise the new assessment techniques and provide feedback to the Department for Education so that we can get assessment absolutely right. There will be no benefit to children or teachers in boycotting the assessment procedures. I am glad that the National Union of Teachers, for instance, is being constructive in this regard.
Security
6. Mr. Molyneaux : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Michael Mates) : Since I answered a similar question on 18 February, six people have been killed as a result of the security situation in Northern Ireland, including three civilians, two Royal Ulster Constabulary Officers and one soldier.
The Government, through the work of the police and armed forces, and with the support of the public, will
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defeat terrorism from whichever side of the community it comes. There is no lack of will or determination on the Government's part or on the part of the security forces. An example of the level of police success is that so far this year 63 people have been charged with serious terrorist crimes, including 14 with murder or attempted murder.Mr. Molyneaux : In expressing deep sympathy with the families of those who have been murdered, including the young soldier who was shot yesterday by an American bullet from an American rifle, probably fired from the territory of the Irish Republic, may I ask Her Majesty's Government to seek the wholehearted co-operation of the American and Irish Governments in totally suppressing those who carry out such murderous activities?
Mr. Mates : I understand and share the sentiments that the right hon. Gentleman has expressed. We do have the wholehearted co-operation of the Government of the Irish Republic in our attempts to defeat the terrorists. That has been one of the concrete results of the Anglo-Irish Agreement. Co-operation is much better than it has ever been, as has been shown by the joint successes of the Garda and the Royal Ulster Constabulary. We shall continue to try to get the message across in the United States of the importance of neither directly nor indirectly supporting the root cause of the terrorism, but inevitably some arms and money will slip through the net.
Mr. Cyril D. Townsend : Nobody knows better than my hon. Friend the dedication of the British Army to eradicating terrorism in Northern Ireland, but, in view of the considerable overstretch that the British Army is facing, what proposals is his Department putting forward to reduce the burden on the British Army in the years ahead?
Mr. Mates : The overstretch of the British Army is a matter for my colleagues at the Ministry of Defence. We shall ask for and hope to get a sufficient level of Army personnel to support the police as and when the police need that support. If we can reduce terrorism and obtain some political development, we can achieve what we all hope to achieve : more primacy of the police, more areas in which the police can operate without the support of the Army, and thus a reduction in the Army presence in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Mallon : The Minister will be aware that the six deaths to which he referred took place in my constituency and I express my anger and resentment about them, not least the killing of the young soldier yesterday when everyone else was celebrating the memory of St. Patrick. However, that anger and resentment should not be allowed to cloud the fact that certain statements made recently by senior members of Sinn Fein may show a change of policy and tactics. If that is the case, would it not be wise to encourage those people away from violence? Our real strength is not in our determination but in our ability to capitalise on the potential for peace rather than dismissing it out of hand. Will the Minister and the Secretary of State keep an open mind and use every opportunity to explore that potential for peace?
Mr. Mates : I agree that anger should direct us in nothing that we do. If members of Sinn Fein or the IRA see the pointlessness of what they do, and if they show by their actions that they are prepared to repudiate violence,
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they will see a response from the British Government. But the initiative lies with them and with the many in the community who know about their activities and could persuade them of the futility of the killing. We all want to see the violence end and it is up to us to try to achieve it.Lady Olga Maitland : In view of the appalling number of killings which have taken place, does my hon. Friend agree that it was vital that we renewed the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989 and despicable that the Opposition obstructed it?
Mr. Mates : The Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act is a most important tool which the Government need and which the House was asked to support. I am happy that the House did so.
Further Education
7. Ms Short : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what representations he has received from the further education review group regarding current funding for further education in Northern Ireland ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Hanley : The report of the review group on further education made a total of 48 recommendations about future arrangements for the planning and funding of further education in Northern Ireland, a number of which called for additional resources to be made available. In my response to the report, I indicated that I could maintain spending at its current level, which in recent years has received increased funding, but that there were many competing claims for additional expenditure. However, I gave an assurance at the time that obtaining even more resources for further education would remain one of my top priorities.
Ms Short : Is it not the truth that the report recommended a strengthening of further education provision in Northern Ireland, but also recommended some mergers and closures? The Minister has accepted the mergers and the closures but found no new money. He is using the report as an excuse for cuts rather than for a strengthening of the service.
Mr. Hanley : I am sorry to disagree with the hon. Lady in one respect. The mergers and closures are not to seek cuts in the number of students who go to these colleges or in the number of teachers, who provide an excellent and ever-growing service in Northern Ireland. The purpose is to allow even more teachers to be hired to teach even more students, to benefit the situation in Northern Ireland with the money that is available. It is therefore not in any way a financial cut.
Mr. Sykes : Has my hon. Friend any intention of centralising the administration of further education in Northern Ireland, as has been done in England?
Mr. Hanley : My hon. Friend is perhaps referring to one of the recommendations of the Stewart committee. At this moment a review of the administration of education in Northern Ireland is out for consultation. Whether the further education colleges are brought together under one funding body with one regional control is part of the whole consultation exercise. Therefore, I can tell my hon. Friend that we are looking at that at this very moment.
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Mr. William Ross : As this country faces a deficit of £35 billion this year and £50 billion next year is it not amazing that we are still spending some £10 million educating students from the Irish Republic without any reciprocal arrangement on that side of the frontier? Is that not a scandalous situation, and will the Minister try to do something about it regardless of the European Community?
Mr. Hanley : I am proud that the United Kingdom adheres to its responsibilities within the European Community.
Pupil-teacher Ratios
8. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the current pupil-teacher ratio in (a) primary and (b) secondary schools ; what the figures were in 1979 ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Hanley : The latest available pupil-to-teacher ratio, at January 1992, was 22.6 in primary schools and 15.3 in secondary schools. The figures in 1979, for which my hon. Friend also asked, were 23.8 and 15.6 respectively.
Mr. Greenway : I welcome that improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio since 1979. Will my hon. Friend confirm that the pupil-teacher ratio in Northern Ireland is better than that in England? Will he also say what he thinks that the pupil-teacher ratio should be, and against what kind of criteria it should be decided? Who decides what the best pupil-teacher ratio is?
Mr. Hanley : My hon. Friend is extremely knowledgeable in these matters and I believe that he takes a regular interest in pupil-teacher ratios, but I am afraid that I shall have to put him straight on one aspect. In secondary schools in Northern Ireland the PTR is lower than in England, 15.3 compared with 15.8, but in primary schools the PTR is 22.6, which is above the 22.2 for England. So we cannot look at the figures and say that Northern Ireland is better all round. The second part of my hon. Friend's question related to the optimum PTR. The pupil-teacher ratio under local management of schools is increasingly a matter for each individual school ; the school must decide what its staffing levels should be within its own delegated budget and it must, therefore, decide the priorities for teachers. It is not down to the Government to dictate the PTR, and it is certainly not for us to say what an optimum PTR might be.
Rev. Martin Smyth : Does the Minister accept that the lack of universal nursery education is penalising many young people in Northern Ireland, particularly those from deprived backgrounds where they do not get the stimulus required to equip them for primary and secondary education? Does he agree that if we had better nursery provision many of the difficulties that arise later would be removed?
Mr. Hanley : I am a great believer in the benefits of nursery education, but I believe that Governments should adhere first to their statutory responsibilities while trying to find additional revenue for their non-statutory responsibilities. I agree that nursery education can benefit children for the future.
Mr. Barnes : What is the pupil-teacher ratio in integrated education, which is the best form of education
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in Northern Ireland? A good pupil-teacher ratio in those schools would encourage the further development of integrated education. Has the Minister seen the recent issue of Fortnight which contains articles with extracts from essays written by students at Lagan college? One 15-year-old student pointed out that there are borders in the mind, borders in prisons, borders in education and even borders in entertainment. The removal of those borders would improve the situation in Northern Ireland, and integrated education will help to achieve that.Mr. Hanley : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his support for integrated education. The figures that I gave relate either to primary schools or secondary schools and are not sub-divided into those for integrated schools, but I will certainly provide that information to the hon. Gentleman.
Neil Latimer
9. Mr. Hunter : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what representations he has received about the imprisonment of Neil Latimer of the UDR Four, since July 1992.
Sir Patrick Mayhew : My hon. Friend will recall, because I mentioned it a few moments ago, that I have received a range of representations about the case of Mr. Latimer, mostly seeking a further reference to the Court of Appeal. I have found that none contained material to justify making a reference.
Mr. Hunter : I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to take to heart that on this particular subject many people fear that he is making a dreadful mistake and that any conviction based on the testimony of witness A is unsustainable. They are therefore deeply disquieted by the continued imprisonment of Mr. Latimer. I beg my right hon. and learned Friend to reconsider.
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