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Mr. Winnick : Is the Secretary of State aware that, in paying a well -deserved tribute to our troops in Bosnia, one recognises that it would be intolerable if they were fired on, as has been the occasion, and were not in a position to retaliate? The British troops have a right to defend themselves in carrying out humanitarian aid and delivering relief supplies, which is undoubtedly supported by most people in Britain.
Mr. Rifkind : That is correct. Under the rules of engagement, they have the right to defend themselves. Indeed, in a recent incident near Tuzla, the 9th/12th Lancers returned fire on those who attacked them. They were perfectly entitled to do that and are entitled to use any of the weaponry at their disposal to protect their own lives or the lives of those for whom they are responsible.
Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith : Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that it is still the policy of Her Majesty's Government not to involve a substantial contribution of British troops in a combat role in Yugoslavia?
Mr. Rifkind : Yes, I can confirm that it is not our belief that it would be appropriate for ground forces to be used in a combat role. We share that view with all the other United Nations countries that are participating in Bosnia at the present time.
Dr. David Clark : If the British troops in Bosnia need more equipment to defend themselves, will the Secretary of State assure the House that he will ensure that they have further light artillery under similar rules of engagement so that they can perform their humanitarian role? Will he also make it clear that the reported build-up of British forces in the vicinity does not mean an inexorable drift into a bloody conflict without any military or political objectives, which could lead to an even greater loss of life than at present?
Mr. Rifkind : I can indeed confirm that we are not considering any extension of the role of the ground forces currently in Bosnia, who are there to carry out a humanitarian role. Of course we shall continue to monitor whether the equipment available to them to defend themselves is sufficient to meet their requirements. If we were to conclude that it was necessary to enhance the equipment available for their protection, we would not hesitate to supply it.
14. Mr. John Greenway : To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a further statement on the role of British armed forces personnel in the provision of humanitarian aid in Bosnia.
15. Mr. Jacques Arnold : To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the current situation of the British forces serving with the United Nations in Bosnia.
Mr. Rifkind : During my own recent visit to the United Nations protection force I was able to see at first hand some of the work that British forces there are doing. By escorting convoys, and creating by their presence a secure
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atmosphere in which aid agencies can operate, our forces have ensured that areas that have not received aid for many months have now been reached with vital supplies.Mr. Greenway : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that those who criticise the fact that it is always British and American armed forces who carry out the kind of roles being carried out in Bosnia and Somalia should reflect that that is to the shame of the countries that are doing nothing rather than a valid criticism of the policy of the United Kingdom Government?
Mr. Rifkind : Yes, my hon. Friend is correct to emphasise that the United Kingdom can hold its head high as it is making such a crucial contribution in ensuring that food, medical aid and shelter reach the many tens of thousands of people who would be starving during the very severe winter months but for the magnificent contribution of our British forces in Bosnia.
Mr. Jacques Arnold : Will my right hon. and learned Friend remind himself of the fact that our forces are operating in very difficult winter conditions? Will he assure us that they will be properly equipped to look after themselves and ensure that their capabilities are maintained?
Mr. Rifkind : I can give my hon. Friend that assurance and tell him that we are considering whether any further enhancement might be required to meet that objective with even more certainty in the weeks and months to come.
Rev. Martin Smyth : I welcome the understanding that the forces will be properly equipped to protect themselves against winter conditions, but does the Secretary of State not accept that while a Portakabin type might protect against winter conditions, the type of hardened shelter that has been developed in Northern Ireland would protect them better from the shelling that they are enduring now?
Mr. Rifkind : I am very conscious of the fact that the situation has deteriorated significantly in the past week or so. For the first time, our forces have been subjected to what appears to have been a deliberate artillery attack from what appear to have been Serbian positions. We are urgently considering the proper response to ensure the fullest protection for our forces in Bosnia at the present time.
Mr. Jim Marshall : Is the Secretary of State aware that there is general acceptance by all countries with troops in Bosnia that the British troops are among the most efficient there? That being so, is it not inequitable that our troops receive less pay there than they would in Germany or Northern Ireland while the soldiers of other countries receive enhanced pay?
Mr. Rifkind : I believe that the hon. Gentleman's comment is based on a misunderstanding. The allowance that our forces receive in, for example, Germany is to enable them to purchase local goods--which are, of course, quite expensive. In Bosnia, all their requirements are entirely met by the Army. Where their families remain in Germany, they continue to receive allowances to which they were previously entitled.
Mr. Viggers : Does my right hon. and learned Friend recall that when our troops were first deployed in Bosnia for humanitarian purposes we reserved the right to
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withdraw them should they come under fire? Does he accept that the situation is deteriorating and that there is a severe risk that the United Nations forces might end up being the fourth side in a civil war? Will my right hon. and learned Friend keep anxiously open the option of withdrawing our forces and perhaps regrouping elsewhere in the area if that is deemed a safer way of maintaining peace?Mr. Rifkind : I can understand my hon. Friend's concern. We judge these matters against two criteria : first, whether they can fulfil the humanitarian role for which they were sent to Bosnia ; secondly, whether the level of risk that they face in the war zone is acceptable. We shall continue to apply those criteria.
PRIME MINISTER
Engagements
Q1. Mr. Olner : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 12 January.
The Prime Minister (Mr. John Major) : This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.
Mr. Olner : I thank the Prime Minister for that reply. Many hundreds of skilled workers in my constituency are, unfortunately, out of work at the present time. Quite frankly, they are suffering from the Government's failure to support employers. Can we look forward in 1993 to no more false dawns but to positive action on jobs so that my constituents and their families can regain some dignity?
The Prime Minister : We all wish to see recovery--there is no difference between any hon. Members on that subject. We shall get lasting recovery only if we have the right basics. These include low inflation, modest interest rates and the right exchange rate. They are now all in place.
Mr. Day : Has my right hon. Friend seen reports that the National Union of Teachers is to organise a boycott of tests for 14-year-olds? If those reports are correct, will he condemn such action as disgraceful and highly damaging,
The Prime Minister : I am certainly prepared to condemn any such call and any such action. I suspect that teachers will be far too sensible to take any such action. Those tests are vital. They are good for children, parents want to see them, teachers need to know how well the children are performing, and parents have a right to know how well their children are performing. Those tests will provide that information.
Mr. John Smith : Since the wrecking of the Braer is a major environmental disaster and one which could happen again before the inquiries that were announced yesterday have been completed, will the Prime Minister take interim action now to protect our coastlines? Will he convene an urgent meeting with the oil companies to obtain an assurance from them that only the safest routes will be used for the transport of oil while the inquiries are going on? Will he also agree to proposals that have been made to make adequate radar facilities available in sensitive areas so that the continuing traffic in oil can be monitored while the inquiries proceed?
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The Prime Minister : I will certainly invite my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment to examine those matters. They may have many ramifications and I think that I should have them examined before I give the right hon. and learned Gentleman a concrete answer.
Mr. John Smith : I at least welcome the Prime Minister's decision to refer this to his right hon. and learned Friend, but I ask him to engage himself in this important matter. Will he bear in mind that it is frequently the case in matters of aviation that interim action, such as the grounding of aircraft, may be taken while inquiries are being undertaken? Will he bear in mind the acute anxiety that exists in areas all round the coast at what has happened in the Shetlands? May I invite him to look into it personally and to make an early report to the House?
The Prime Minister : That may well be. As I indicated to the right hon. and learned Gentleman a moment ago, it is prudent to examine a matter carefully before making a commitment. [Interruption.] Were I to make a commitment without doing so, the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be right to be critical. Of course my right hon. and learned Friend will examine it carefully ; he will report to me and we shall report to the House.
Mr. Nigel Evans : Does my right hon. Friend agree with me that private sector skills have greatly benefited industries such as Rover cars, gas, electricity and British Telecom, following policies which the Opposition have opposed at every turn? Will he confirm to the House today that soon these same private sector skills will be made available to British Rail?
The Prime Minister : I can certainly offer that assurance, and no doubt my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport will give further details later this afternoon.
Q2. Mr. Ronnie Campbell : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 12 January.
The Prime Minister : I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Ronnie Campbell : Is the Prime Minister aware that Swan Hunter shipbuilding on the Tyne is now on the verge of complete closure, with the loss of 2,000 jobs and disaster for the north-east? Can he therefore confirm that the new helicopter carrier is still in the programme to be built on the Tyne?
The Prime Minister : We have received tenders and we are considering them at the present time.
Mr. Dykes : If my right hon. Friend has time to think about it today, will he agree that legitimate attempts to protect the privacy of prominent and other citizens alike should not be used as an excuse to launch a fundamental attack on the freedom of the press, which is so vital to a thriving democracy?
The Prime Minister : The Government have now received the report of Sir David Calcutt and we shall publish it shortly. The whole House will then have an opportunity to make up its mind on the contents of the report.
Mr. Ashdown : In view of the grave news of the breakdown of the Geneva talks as a result of Bosnian Serb
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intransigence, will the Prime Minister now confirm that the British Government are prepared to act with others to protect against the future elimination of the Muslim homeland, to maintain the isolation of the Bosnian Serbs and to increase the pressure, political and military, to force the Bosnian Serbs to return to the peace table?The Prime Minister : I share the right hon. Gentleman's regret at the breakdown of the discussions in Geneva. I believe that Cyrus Vance and Lord Owen have done an outstanding job. They have put forward a fair plan. It is a matter of great regret that the Bosnian Serbs are unpersuaded and unprepared to accept it. Sooner or later there must be a negotiated settlement ; the only question is whether it comes now or following further repression, further suffering and further difficulties. The international community will wish to apply further pressure if the Bosnian Serbs continue to reject this settlement.
Mr. Mark Robinson : Does my right hon. Friend agree with me on the important role that small and medium-sized businesses will have to play in economic recovery? Will he undertake to sweep away the unnecessary layers of red tape and bureaucracy which so tie down some of our small businesses?
The Prime Minister : I have indicated that it is certainly the Government's intention to do so. We have already made good progress since the election, but I now want us to go both further and faster. I have therefore asked every Department in Whitehall to prepare plans for action on deregulation. I shall be meeting every Secretary of State in early February, with their permanent secretaries, and I hope that we can then draw up a detailed plan for deregulation of burdens on business.
Homelessness
Q3. Mr. Corbyn : To ask the Prime Minister, when he next expects to meet representatives of London's homeless.
The Prime Minister : I have no plans to do so, but my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing meets representatives regularly.
Mr. Corbyn : Is it not about time the Prime Minister met representatives of London's homeless to learn that 40,000 families--about 100,000 people--spent Christmas in temporary accommodation, a 10 per cent. increase on a year ago, that there are 50,000 single homeless in London and more than 2,000 sleeping on the streets, a 10 per cent. increase on a year ago and a fivefold increase on five years ago? Is it not about time money was provided to local authorities to buy and build so that families can grow up in decent accommodation rather than suffering the indignity of bed and breakfast accommodation, and public resources were put where they are needed to provide decent homes for the people of this city rather than building empty office blocks for speculative gain?
The Prime Minister : The hon. Gentleman neglected to mention the number of empty houses either in his own local authority's stock or in that of many local authorities. Liverpool, Hackney, Burnley, Manchester, Salford and North Tyneside all have a very bad record on empty properties.
When my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing or I next meet representatives of the homeless we shall be able
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to tell them that recent figures show a continuing decline in the number of families in bed and breakfast accommodation, nationally by 23 per cent. and by 30 per cent. in London and the south-east. I shall be able to remind them of the £750 million housing package announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the autumn statement. That will further reduce the numbers in bed and breakfast. I might also remind them of the £100 million scheme for sleeping rough which has been amazingly successful.Engagements
Q4. Mr. Riddick : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 12 January.
The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Riddick : Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the things that the British people expect from the Conservative Government is tough action on law and order [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker : Order. The House must come to order.
Mr. Riddick : Does the Prime Minister share my concern about the increasing problem of persistent young offenders carrying out crimes such as car crime, burglaries and joy riding? Will he confirm that the Government will take tough action to combat those problems--unlike the Labour party, which is soft on crime?
The Prime Minister : I will take scoffing from the Labour party on law and order when they begin to support the prevention of terrorism Acts-- [Interruption.]
Madam Speaker : The House must come to order to hear what the Prime Minister has to say--[ Interruption.] All parts of the House, for that matter.
The Prime Minister : On the assumption that Members of the House did not hear what I said a moment ago, I shall repeat it for their benefit. I will take words from the Opposition on law and order when they stop opposing the prevention of terrorism Acts.
I certainly agree with my hon. Friend about law and order. I certainly share his concern about the persistent offending of so many young people. I have therefore asked my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary to look urgently at the existing arrangements for dealing with juvenile offenders and to consider what new measures it is sensible to introduce. This is one of the areas of greatest concern in the growth of crime statistics and one with which we are determined to deal.
Q5. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 12 January.
The Prime Minister : I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Skinner : Does the Prime Minister agree that the biggest problem facing this country at present is the scourge of mass unemployment? Is he aware that it is costing £9,000 for the taxpayer to finance somebody out of work? That is a total cost of £30 billion out of a public sector borrowing requirement of £37 billion. If the Prime Minister tackled that problem, he would be tackling the
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economy's problems as well. He has the fate of 100,000 people in his hands--30,000 of them miners--in the course of the next few weeks. He could resolve the problem easily. If he will give a subsidy of only half that which is given to nuclear power he will be able to save all 31 pits and 100,000 jobs, export coal to every continent in the world and resolve some of the balance of payments problems as well. Will the Prime Minister stop dithering and do it?The Prime Minister : I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman about the scourge of unemployment. The difference between him and me would be the right method with which to deal with it and to ensure that there are long- term jobs subsequently available. I note what he says about the problem of the pits, but I have no intention of anticipating the coal review, which will be brought before the House as speedily as possible. While the hon. Gentleman continues to support policies such as a payroll tax on jobs, the social chapter, and a national minimum wage, he is not in the best position to lecture us about job losses.
Q6. Mr. Nicholls : To ask the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Tuesday 12 January.
The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Nicholls : Will my right hon. Friend take time today to consider the wider implications of the rundown or closure of Devonport dockyards? Does he appreciate that the continuing uncertainty is causing unhappiness not just in the city of Plymouth but throughout the west country? I appreciate that he cannot announce a decision today, but will he at least assure the people of Devon and Cornwall that when the time comes for that decision to be made he will have their concerns very much in the forefront of his mind?
The Prime Minister : I appreciate the great concern in the minds of the people of Devon--and, indeed, of those of near Rosyth--concerning the decisions that need to be taken about the dockyards. I know that that uncertainty is worrying people. The Secretary of State for Defence will announce our proposals as soon as he can. I assure my hon. Friend that there will be no undue delay.
Statutory Instruments, &c.
Madam Speaker : With permission, I shall put together the motions relating to statutory instruments.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(3) (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.),
Electoral Areas (Northern Ireland)
That the draft District Electoral Areas (Northern Ireland) Order 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.
Contracted-out Prisons
That the draft Criminal Justice Act 1991 (Contracted-out Prisons) (No. 2) Order 1992 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.
Seat Belts
That the draft Motor Vehicles (Wearing of Seat Belts) Regulations 1993 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.-- [Mr. Nicholas Baker.]
Question agreed to.
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Resettlement Unit (Stormy Down)
Mr. Win Griffiths (Bridgend) : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek your advice about a notice that appeared on a notice board in a resettlement unit at Stormy Down in my constituency. It was put up by the Resettlement Agency and I believe that it may constitute a contempt of the House. At present--
Madam Speaker : Order. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, and I do so only because he alleges contempt.
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If there is any question of contempt, he must not continue with the point he is making. It is a serious matter. He must put it in writing to me today without delay. I must ask him to do that, now that he has raised the issue.Mr. Griffiths : I shall be happy to do that, Madam Speaker, because I regard it as a serious matter.
Madam Speaker : That is the way to proceed. I have given the hon. Member the only advice possible.
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