House of Commons Hansard Debates for 16 Dec 1992

Hansard

House of Commons

Wednesday 16 December 1992

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[ Madam Speaker -- in the Chair ]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

British Railways

(No. 4) Bill-- (By Order)

British Waterways Bill

[Lords] (By Order)

Crossrail Bill

(By Order)

East Coast Main Line (Safety) Bill

(By Order)

Greater Manchester (Light Rapid Transit System)

Bill-- [Lords] (By Order)

Woodgrange Park Cemetery Bill

[Lords] (By Order) River Humber (Upper Burcom Cooling Works) Bill-- [Lords] (By Order) Orders for Second Reading read.

To be read a Second time on Thursday 14 January 1993.

Oral Answers to Questions

SCOTLAND

Rail Services (Edinburgh and the Borders)

1. Mr. Beith : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the chairman of British Rail about the future of rail services from Edinburgh and the borders to London and the continent.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton) : My right hon. Friend and I meet senior managemenof British Rail from time to time. Such contacts cover a wide range of topics relating to rail services in Scotland.

Mr. Beith : If Mr. Richard Branson--or anyone else--is allowed to take over the east coast main line service, what guarantee is there that passengers from the borders will continue to have frequent train services from Berwick and other intermediate stations? With or without Richard Branson, when will there be through services to France, through the channel tunnel, from Edinburgh and the borders?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : The answer is 1995. I understand that British Rail intends to operate a day-time service from Edinburgh down the east coast main line and a night-time service from Glasgow down the west coast main line to Paris and Brussels. Day-time and night-time through services are expected to start in 1995, but, for

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people intending to use the route earlier, there will, of course, be an option of transferring quickly in London to another route. Freight services will be in use as soon as the channel tunnel opens. The reason for the delay to 1995 is that many complex issues need to be resolved.

Mr. Foulkes : Has the Minister read the remarks of Lords Whitelaw and Ridley in the other place arguing strongly against any privatisation of British Rail? As one of them is one of the greatest advocates of privatisation, will the Government take account of those remarks? Train services in the borders, in Ayrshire and in other rural areas are bound to suffer if privatisation goes ahead. Clearly, private operators will be after only the lucrative routes, and rural areas, as usual, will be the ones to suffer. Will the Government think again on the issue?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : The Government have given a clear commitment to preserving the current national network and continuing to provide subsidy, when it is needed, for loss-making services that are socially necessary. On the privatisation of international routes, the Government's view is that international services will benefit from private sector expertise, and specific options for transferring international services to the private sector are under discussion within British Rail and the Government. I cannot yet say when we shall be in a position to publish specific proposals.

Independence

2. Mr. Amess : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent representations he has received for Scottish independence.

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Ian Lang) : Since the general election I have received 22 representations in favour of independence for Scotland. I have received hundreds in support of the maintenance of the Union.

Mr. Amess : Is my right hon. Friend aware that many Scottish people live in Basildon? They are proud to be Scottish and pleased to live in Basildon. Is my right hon. Friend further aware that the overwhelming majority of them are totally opposed to the break-up of the United Kingdom, and does he agree with them?

Mr. Lang : I am glad to be able to reassure my hon. Friend that the overwhelming majority of the people of Scotland are also resistant to the break-up of the United Kingdom. The only political party offering the break -up of the United Kingdom saw its representation in the House reduced by 40 per cent. at the general election, when I was delighted to see my hon. Friend re-elected as the Member for Basildon.

Mr. McAllion : Is the Secretary of State aware that although the democratic opposition to Tory Government in Scotland may be divided on the issue of indpendence, it is absolutely united behind the principle that Scotland should decide for itself what its views on independence are? Who does the Secretary of State think is more representative of Scottish opinion--the 25,000 Scots from every part of the country who gathered in Edinburgh last Saturday to demand a multi-option referendum, or the ragbag of no-hopers on the Conservative Back Benches?

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Mr. Lang : If the hon. Gentleman wants to see a ragbag, he should look at the range of organisations with different opinions that marched in the demonstration on Saturday. They could not even reach the end of the march without disagreeing and falling out among themselves.

Sir Nicholas Fairbairn : Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that Scotland's greatest benefit is that it is the only country on earth which does not have the misfortune to have a Government? However, Scotland has the good fortune to have control over its affairs and its heritage--for which my right hon. Friend is so appreciated. Will he ensure that when the English work out whether they can buy tea or shortbread on Sundays, under their stupid Shops Act 1950, section 4 of the 1950 Act is never applied to Scotland and that our law remains as free as it is?

Mr. Lang : My hon. and learned Friend is right to draw attention to the distinctive features of legislation affecting Scotland, which are safeguarded by arrangements in this Parliament. Not for the first time, Scotland is giving examples from which England can benefit.

Mr. Wallace : Does the Secretary of State accept that while 78 per cent. of the Scottish people rejected independence on 9 April, 75 per cent. were not satisfied with the status quo and wanted a Scottish Parliament? Given that the Secretary of State, in his speech to the Monday club at the Conservative party conference, accepted the nationhood of Scotland, how does he envisage Scotland being able to implement the democratic wish of the Scottish people if he and his colleagues in Government refuse to accept that wish?

Mr. Lang : The vast majority of people voting in the last general election supported parties which are nominally committed to the maintenance of the Union of the United Kingdom. Within that United Kingdom and its Parliament, it is possible to cater for the distinctive needs of the different parts of the Union. That is what already happens in Parliament, and that is what we are considering to find out whether further changes can be made to improve arrangements for Scottish business at Westminster.

Mr. Ian Bruce : What representations has my right hon. Friend received from the dockyard workers at Rosyth about an independent Scotland? If that were to come about, what effect do they think that it would have on their jobs?

Mr. Lang : I have had no such representations, but, in that matter as in so many others, Scotland's benefits derive to a large extent from our membership of this United Kingdom.

Mr. Salmond : The Secretary of State must be aware, even if Basildon man is not, that the latest signs are that independence is the leading option and that it is twice as popular as his option--the status quo. In the light of Saturday's march and rally, does the Secretary of State still believe what he has told us for the past six months--that no one is interested in the Scottish question? On Saturday, 25,000 people demonstrated for freedom and democracy in the streets of our capital city. When will he take stock of that? If the governor-general were to announce a rally in March in favour of the discredited Union, would any Scot bother to turn up--or would he have to bus them in from Basildon?

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Mr. Lang : I have already pointed out that the march last Saturday contained elements that conflict directly with each other in their views of the future of Scotland. The hon. Gentleman asks who is interested in the Scottish question. I am interested in it. That is why I and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister are taking stock. That is why we are considering proposals to change the arrangements whereby Scottish business is handled and to find other ways in which Scottish interests can be better represented within this Westminster Parliament.

Mr. Canavan : When did the Scottish Tory party manage to get 25,000 Scots marching for anything? The Secretary of State is trying to derive some comfort from the fact that there are honest differences of opinion among the people of Scotland on the exact powers that a Scottish Parliament should have. Why is he so afraid to hold a referendum and let the people decide? Is it because he knows that the overwhelming majority would reject the status quo?

Mr. Lang : The Scottish Conservative party is pursuing its objectives through democratic and parliamentary means, and it was the only party in Scotland to increase both its vote and its share of the seats at the last general election.

Local Government

3. Mr. David Shaw : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the conduct of local government in Scotland.

Mr. Lang : The conduct of local authority business in Scotland and the rest of Great Britain was comprehensively examined by the Widdecombe committee, and the Government made a number of changes in the law in the light of its report. I believe that Scottish authorities generally observe high standards in the conduct of their business, but there are lapses from time to time.

Mr. Shaw : Is my right hon. Friend aware that many Scottish people in my constituency have been shocked to learn that 22 relatives of Labour councillors are employed by Monklands district council? [Interruption.] Is my right hon. Friend further aware that, of those 22 relatives, three are employed in the housing department, the wife of the director of housing is employed in the leisure centre-- [Interruption.] and the view of the tenants and people of Coatbridge and Airdrie-- [Interruption.]

Madam Speaker : Order. Hon. Members must not shout down other hon. Members. We have freedom of speech here. There will be opportunities for rebuttal. Will the hon. Gentleman move rapidly to his question?

Mr. Shaw : My question relates to the fact that of 22 wives, sons and daughters of Labour councillors employed by Monklands district council, three are employed in the housing department, the wife of the director of housing is employed in the leisure centre-- [Interruption.]

Madam Speaker : Order. I am now directing the hon. Gentleman to come to his question. I want a question now.

Mr. Shaw : I hoped that my right hon. Friend would have the opportunity to follow the whole question. Is my right hon. Friend aware that the people of Airdrie and Coatbridge believe that they can obtain houses, council

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house transfers and repairs only if they have the approval of the ruling Labour families on the council? What does my right hon. Friend intend to do about that?

Mr. Ernie Ross : On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that I cannot take points of order at this stage. [Interruption.] Order. Hon. Members are responsible for the comments that they make in the House and there are opportunities for rebuttal. I shall come to that as soon as the Secretary of State has had an opportunity to respond.

Mr. Lang : I am aware of those allegations and I share my hon. Friend's concern. My powers to intervene in such matters are limited by statute law. Section 211 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 gives me discretionary power to order a local inquiry if I consider that a local authority has failed to carry out a statutory duty or if I am of the opinion that an investigation should be made to determine whether it has so failed. I am currently considering whether any of the allegations made may amount to a breach of the council's statutory duties.

Mr. Maxton : Is it not time that the Secretary of State took the opportunity to dissociate himself publicly in the House from the irresponsible and unscrupulous campaign being run by the hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Shaw) and advised the hon. Gentleman that he has much better things to do with his time? Will he also ask the hon. Member to repeat his allegations outside the House where he is not covered by parliamentary privilege?

Mr. Lang : I have explained my position with regard to the statutory duties of the local authority and my own statutory powers. Others who have complaints in relation to these matters have the option of pursuing them in other ways--through the courts, the local government ombudsman, or the Commission for Local Authority Accounts in Scotland.

Mr. Bill Walker : My right hon. Friend will be aware that I have tabled a question and received what I judge to be an unsatisfactory answer about the activities of Councillor Brooks, the leader of Monklands district council. My question concerns the amount of public money which has gone into a company that has gone into liquidation and anther company that is still trading. It is only right that the House should be made aware of the public money that has been used and the debt that is outstanding on pay-as- you-earn after four years in relation to the company that has gone into liquidation. Those are matters of genuine interest to the House regardless of the political colour of the individuals concerned.

Mr. Lang : If the Commission for Local Authority Accounts in Scotland concludes that the council has illegally authorised expenditure, it can submit a special report to me with any recommendations that it may have. That may include the surcharging of those responsible ; I am empowered to do that, but I have no evidence that it would be appropriate.

Mr. Galloway : Is the Secretary of State unaware how repugnant it will seem to people at home watching our proceedings that question 2 at Scottish Question Time should be from the buffoon of Basildon about Scottish independence? Question 3, which the Secretary of State is

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now answering, impugns the integrity of people who are not here to answer for themselves and was asked by a man

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Allan Stewart) : Black shirt

Mr. Galloway : Never mind my black shirt. Question 3 was asked by a man who brought a prostitute into this building and caused her to have a parliamentary pass. That he should be the man casting aspersions on the characters of other people, and that the Secretary of State should associate himself with that, is a revolting spectacle.

Mr. Lang : I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has asked a question for me to answer.

Mr. Kynoch : Has my right hon. Friend had any approach from the Leader of the Opposition or the shadow spokesman for Scotland about carrying out an inquiry into these dreadful affairs?

Mr. Lang : No, I have not had an approach from either the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) or from the hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke).

Scottish Homes Budget

4. Mr. Darling : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the proportion of Scottish Homes budget will be spent in Edinburgh and the Lothians in 1992-93.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : Scottish Homes is likely to spend 12 per cent. of its programme in Edinburgh and the Lothians in 1992-93. This will be about £44 million and compares with £36 million in 1991- 92.

Mr. Darling : While I welcome the fact that Scottish Homes has reluctantly increased the amount that it is spending on the east coast of Scotland, is the Minister aware that this Christmas people will be sleeping rough in the doorways and cemeteries of Scotland's capital, that 8,000 people are on Edinburgh housing association waiting lists and that others fear that in 1993 they will lose their homes as a result of increasing rents and mortgages? Will he stop Scottish Homes siphoning off public funds to help private developers and ensure that more money is put into the housing association budget to build desperately needed homes in Edinburgh and throughout Scotland, and, above all, at affordable rents?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I confirm to the hon. Gentleman that early next week we shall make a statement on the additional £7.5 million for the homelessness competition. Proposals have been received from more than 40 local authorities and are currently being assessed. The hon. Gentleman spoke about mortgage repossessions. Only 4 per cent. of the applications for homelessness relate to that cause. I make it clear to the hon. Gentleman that Scottish Homes will certainly take into account not only the needs of Edinburgh and the Lothians but those of the whole of Scotland. Scottish Homes has been making substantial progress in giving funds to housing associations to alleviate homelessness.

A considerable amount of activity is taking place in the hon. Gentleman's constituency. Provision for the elderly is being made by Fountainbridge housing association, and Canmore housing association is providing for special

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needs at Morrison street. Fountainbridge housing association is making provision at Gilmour place for a homeless group. There is a further project at Lauriston place by Lister co-operative for those in priority need, and the Old Town housing association is providing for general needs at Guthrie street. I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman's representations will be borne in mind when further allocations are made by Scottish Homes and the provisional allocations are made shortly before Christmas.

Mr. Gallie : Is my hon. Friend aware that the number of houses below tolerable standard in Scotland fell yet again in the past year, this time by about 4 per cent? As it is Conservative policy to improve and not to demolish, is not that good value for public expenditure? Is he further aware that the remaining below tolerable standard houses are on the private ownership side of the housing market? Will he take account of that when allocating public funds for next year's expenditure?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I shall most certainly do that. About £2 million was made available for Edinburgh in a supplementary allocation for the pre-1984 backlog of repairs ; that will be borne in mind before we make provisional allocations. I also confirm that Edinburgh and the Lothians received an additional £4.1 million from Scottish Homes in respect of a recent supplementary allocation. Those matters have been carefully borne in mind.

Mr. Wray : Does the Minister agree that neither Scottish Homes nor Scottish local authorities can solve the homeless problem? Have not 35,000 people registered as homeless in 1992 ? including 11,500 families? Is he aware that that means 84 children a day becoming homeless in 1992 ? Is it not clear that the Government do not care about the homeless? If they did, they would not have spent £16 million on a European summit.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : The funding for the European summit was money well spent.

Scottish Homes has provided more than 1,200 housing association units during the past three years, specifically to cater for the homeless. In addition, one third of local authority nominations for Scottish Homes stock have been targeted for homeless applicants. In the coming year, more than £1 billion will be spent on housing by Scottish Homes, local authorities and new towns. A substantial proportion of that should be used to combat homelessness as and where necessary. The statutory responsibility lies with local authorities to decide what allocation to make within their mainstream allocations.

Mrs. Fyfe : Does the Minister know that in West Lothian the number of homeless families and single people applying for housing rose by 65 per cent. this year? Does he know that this Christmas more than 2, 500 children will spend the day in local authority temporary accommodation? Does he realise that 120,000 children will spend Christmas in damp and dangerous housing? At 38,000 households, the Government have beaten their previous record for homelessness in Scotland. Do they actually understand the misery for which they are responsible?

Can the Minister explain the competition to which he referred briefly a moment ago? Are the homeless now to compete with one another to get a decent, dry home?

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Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : The hon. Lady should be aware that last month we requested proposals for a share of the additional £7.5 million made available for homelessness projects in 1992-93. We have received proposals from more than 40 local authorities, which we are currently assessing. I had hoped to make an announcement today, but I cannot. I shall do so as soon as possible. The proposals need to be properly assessed. Of course, the most pressing priorities will be chosen.

I must make the point that 60 to 70 per cent. of homeless applicants result from family disputes. Neither local authorities nor the Government are responsible for that. However, it is right that local authorities should have the statutory responsibility. Of course, being homeless is quite different from being roofless. No one in Scotland should be roofless. Local authorities should give top priority to ensuring that any such people are looked after properly.

Maternity Services

5. Ms. Rachel Squire : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the Government's policy towards provision of full maternity services.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Allan Stewart) : The Government's policy towards the provision of full maternity services is to enable women to have a choice of how and where they give birth, provided that this can be done safely and cost effectively. The guiding principle is the safety of the mother and child. The way in which that policy is operated is being reviewed in the light of the report by the Health Select Committee on maternity services in England and Wales.

Ms. Squire : Is the Minister aware that the choice of the vast majority of the people of Dunfermline and West Fife is that there should be full maternity services in Dunfermline? Is he further aware that the most recent survey of the wishes of local people, carried out by the local newspaper the Dunfermline Press and West Fife Advertiser, found that almost 1,000 people--the vast majority--were in favour of that provision? Will the Minister therefore express his support for a full maternity service in Dunfermline? Will he instruct Fife health board to meet the needs and the wishes of the people of Dunfermline and West Fife and to continue to provide a full maternity service in Dunfermline?

Mr. Stewart : I am aware of the hon. Lady's close interest in and concern about the matter on behalf of her constituents. I shall give her the up-to-date position as I understand it. The Fife health board decided on 15 December to withdraw consultant maternity services from Dunfermline, and instead to introduce a midwife-led service. My right hon. Friend awaits a formal proposal from the board, which will include the results of the public consultation to which the hon. Lady referred. I assure the hon. Lady that my right hon. Friend has made it clear that he will not agree to the establishment of more midwife-led units until the pilot scheme in Aberdeen has been evaluated.

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Alcohol Abuse

6. Sir Fergus Montgomery : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he last met the Scottish Council on Alcohol to discuss funding for centres dealing with alcohol abuse.

Mr. Stewart : Scottish Office officials regularly meet representatives of the Scottish Council on Alcohol. The last meeting took place on 5 November. The funding of alcohol misuse services was not raised.

Sir Fergus Montgomery : Is my hon. Friend aware that people in alcohol abuse centres are worried that the money allocated to them is going on the community care budget? They feel that that money should be ring- fenced and used specifically for alcohol abuse. Does he agree that the chance of people suffering from alcohol abuse because of drinking too much Scotch whisky is slim, because it is cheaper to buy a bottle of Scotch whisky on the continent than in the United Kingdom due to the terrifying amount of duty charged?

Mr. Stewart : On my hon. Friend's first question, I can reassure him that we are continuing to provide substantial support for the work of the Scottish Council on Alcohol and that the two designated places in Scotland continue to receive substantial direct assistance. The care in the community budget is generally ring-fenced, but aggregate external finance in Scotland is not ring-fenced specifically, as it is in England. However, my right hon. and noble Friend the Minister of State has made clear the substantial extra resources that are being allocated to local authorities for the transfer to care in the community.

My hon. Friend's second question falls within the remit of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor will no doubt have noted the roar of cross-party approval that greeted my hon. Friend's remarks.

Mr. Michael J. Martin : One of the things that could help reduce alcohol abuse is a reduction in long-term unemployment. In my community, many highly skilled men and women who have been out of work for years are in deep depression, which can sometimes lead to alcohol abuse. Surely it would be better if the Government took steps to give them back their pride and dignity, and got them back to work.

Mr. Stewart : I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there are many reasons for trying to get unemployment down, not just the factors to which he referred. Moreover, a range of measures can be and are being taken to deal with the problems of alcohol abuse. For example, I had a useful meeting recently with the chief medical officer and employers' representatives in Scotland. Further positive moves will be taken to see how we can inculcate a responsible attitude to deal with alcohol misuse in the workplace.

Local Government

7. Mr. Hood : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will list all the organisations and individuals who lobbied him in support for a reorganisation of Scottish local government ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Lang : The responses to the Government's first consultation paper on the reform of local government,

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published last February, were made available for public inspection. The Government published a summary of responses to that paper in February of this year and this is available in the Library.

Mr. Hood : The Secretary of State knows that his proposals are anti- democratic and a further attack on local democracy in Scotland. If he denies that, will he assure the House and Scotland that, post reform, the number of councillors in district councils will not be cut? Will he further assure the House that the joint boards that he envisages in his consultation paper will be manned not by quango Tories appointed by himself, but only by elected councillors?

Mr. Lang : The proposals in the consultation paper are not undemocratic. The purpose of reform to a single-tier structure is to create stronger, more coherent local authorities. The other points raised by the hon. Gentleman will be considered in the consultation process. However, it is worth mentioning that his district council, Clydesdale, while expressing views on a number of other aspects, said :

"The council would offer no objections to a single tier system of local government."

Mr. Raymond S. Robertson : When my right hon. Friend eventually brings his proposals on the future of local government to the House, will he consider allowing the people of our four great Scottish cities directly to elect their Lords Provost and to end the practice of the ruling political group choosing the first citizen?

Mr. Lang : My hon. Friend makes an interesting suggestion. It is one which can be considered in the consultation process, along with all the other suggestions that we shall no doubt be receiving.

Mr. Ingram : Is the Secretary of State aware that the people of the East Kilbride part of Busby have voted to stay with Labour-controlled East Kilbride rather than to transfer to Tory-controlled Eastwood? Why, then, has he overridden the views of the people? Is this a foretaste of what will come with local government reform, with the wishes of the people being ignored by the Government?

Mr. Lang : We have overruled no views. We have put out a consultation paper in which we have listed four illustrative options, but have made it clear that other options can be considered. We shall not approach the decisions that have to be made on a party political basis. I find it depressing that the hon. Gentleman can see the matter only as one of advantage or disadvantage to the Labour party.

Sir Anthony Durant : Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the discussion that is taking place about Monklands is serious? He will be aware that I have taken an active interest in local government-- [Interruption.]

Madam Speaker : Order. I have insisted that other hon. Members do not use a long preamble, but put questions directly. I must apply that rule to the hon. Gentleman.

Sir Anthony Durant : Will my right hon. Friend go ahead with the inquiry and not wait?

Mr. Lang : I am in a position to set up an inquiry only where I am satisfied that there has been a statutory breach

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of local government obligations, and I am not satisfied that that is the case with regard to Monklands district council.

Mr. McLeish : Is not the reform of local government simply a paving measure for the privatisation of Scotland's water and sewerage services? Will the Secretary of State explain why his Ministers squandered £50,000 worth of taxpayers' money in payments to Quayle Monro Ltd essentially to obtain private advice for the Conservative party? When will he publish the report from Quayle Monro? What does he have to hide?

Mr. Lang : The findings of the Quayle Monro report are reflected in the consultation paper on the future structure of the water and sewerage industries of Scotland, in which we have laid out a range of eight options and on which we welcome views. The hon. Gentleman spoke of costs. I was interested to see in The Scotsman yesterday that Coopers and Lybrand Deloitte has carried out a report on behalf of Lothian region that bears out the findings of the Touche Ross report that the reform of local government to a single-tier structure will result in substantial savings.

Mr. Gale : In the light of his earlier answers, does not my right hon. Friend find it surprising that he has not received representations from the Leader of the Opposition concerning the reorganisation of local government in his constituency of Monklands, East?

Mr. Lang : I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition, and all Labour Members of Parliament, will, in due course, address the issue of the reform of local government. I hope that their contributions to the future structure of local government in Scotland will be more constructive and forward looking than their contributions this afternoon.

Offensive Weapons

8. Mr. David Marshall : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland, pursuant to his answer of 26 October, Official Report, column 530, what consultations he proposes to make on legislative proposals relating to the carrying and possession of knives and similar offensive weapons ; and if he will make a statement.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : My right hon. Friend will consult publicly in the new year on proposals to change the law in relation to the carrying and possession of knives. In light of the consultations, we shall introduce measures for consideration by the House at the first available opportunity.

Mr. Marshall : We have heard all this before, time after time. Are not murders at record levels in Scotland this year? Is it not the case that violent criminals are being let out of prison for Christmas, on condition that they do not take drink or drugs? Have not the Tory Government simply gone soft on law and order? For some years, some of us have been trying to get the Government to take action against violence on our streets. How many more people have to be mugged, maimed, slashed, stabbed or murdered before the Government will do something about this ever-growing menace to society?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : Why is it that Strathclyde police are 181 officers under strength? It is because Strathclyde regional council has not employed its

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