House of Commons Hansard Debates for 25 Nov 1992

Council of Europe

9. Mr. David Atkinson : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what he hopes to achieve during his period as chairman in office of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe.

Mr. Garel-Jones : The House will know that the United Kingdom assumed the chairmanship of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe following the ministerial meeting on 5 November in Strasbourg. During the six months of our chairmanship, we intend to give priority to the programmes for assistance to the new democracies of eastern Europe, and to the reform of the human rights machinery. We shall also encourage an objective look at the operation of the Council, in terms of its internal structures, its relationships with other organisations and its management procedures.

Mr. Atkinson : I hope that my right hon. Friend and his colleagues will find that new role less onerous than the presidency of the European Community has proved to be. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is nonsense to establish a new pan-European institution with a parliamentary assembly as part of the process of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe, when the Council of Europe already has proven experience and is an almost identical body? Will he use his period as chairman in office to seek to convince his non-European counterparts--the United States and Canada--of the common sense of the Council of Europe being the parliamentary assembly of the CSCE?

Mr. Garel-Jones : I appreciate the point that my hon. Friend has made. It certainly is the case that the Council of Europe is already helping the CSCE on the human dimension and with its own technical expertise. However, the remit of the Council of Europe goes much wider than that of the CSCE and my hon. Friend will be aware that the memberships of the two are not wholly compatible. Although I have great sympathy with my hon. Friend's point about the proliferation of international organisations, I am not sure that his suggestion is ripe for taking forward at this stage.

Mr. Hardy : Will the Minister give particular encouragement and assistance to the new member states and guest member states during the next six months to see whether we can secure implementation of some of the more important Council of Europe conventions? During that time will he also seek to ensure that those states give proper respect and support to the Vance- Owen initiatives, including those member states through which arms are still flowing today?

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Mr. Garel-Jones : Yes. I can give the hon. Gentleman the undertakings that he seeks.

Mr. John Marshall : My right hon. Friend referred to the problems faced by the countries of eastern Europe. Does he agree that unless we indulge in much more liberal trading practices with the former dictatorships of eastern Europe, then, following the elections in Lithuania and Romania, there is a real risk that they will return to communism?

Mr. Garel-Jones : I agree with my hon. Friend, but he will be aware that we deal with that matter through the association agreements of the European Community. In a sense those agreements were invented by Britain, and through those agreements we press strongly for the most liberal treatment possible in trade with the new eastern European democracies.

Sir Russell Johnston : Given the importance that the Minister rightly attributes to the Council of Europe and the fact that its plenary sessions are known one year in advance--as indeed are those of the Western European Union assembly--does he agree that it is insulting to our partners and inconvenient for hon. Members to arrange European debates in the House during those plenary sessions?

Mr. Garel-Jones : I accept the hon. Gentleman's point, but the way in which the House chooses to run its business is a matter for the House. I know that a report has been produced by the Procedure Committee and all Members should look at it on a non-party basis.

Southern Africa

10. Mr. Hutton : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has to visit southern Africa to assess the political situation in the region.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd) : My right hon. and noblFriend the Minister for Overseas Development may visit the region early next year.

Mr. Hutton : Does the Minister agree that the present situation in Angola is a cause of genuine concern and has the potential to destabilise all southern Africa? Can the Minister tell the House what steps he intends to take to ensure that UNITA not only accepts the result of the September general election, but abides by the terms of the peace agreement?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : As the hon. Gentleman may be aware, two days ago Mr. Savimbi said that the country must move forward on the basis of the election. That represents some progress. The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the grave difficulties in that country. The important thing is to encourage both sides to refrain from violence and to continue to implement the peace agreement embodied in the earlier agreements.

The United Nations Angola verification mission has had its mandate in that country extended until 30 November and it is important to note that the United Nations Secretary-General will again put proposals before the Security Council to carry forward the peace process in Angola before 30 November.

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Sir George Gardiner : When our right hon. and noble Friend next visits southern Africa does she have in mind a visit to Mozambique? In the meantime, would my hon. Friend care to comment on the progress made by the two sides, the Government of Mozambique and Renamo, in moving towards the goal set in the accords that they signed in Rome? Furthermore, will the British Government do their utmost to help both sides achieve a reconciliation that is in accordance with democratic principle?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : Yes, Madam Speaker. The United Kingdom fully supports the general peace agreement that was signed on 4 October in Rome. We will be playing an active part in the process in future months because we will have representation on the peace process commissions established to monitor the implementation of the agreement.

Mr. Robert Hughes : As a partner in the United Nations brokering of the election agreement in Angola, do the Government accept that they must do much more than simply adumbrate the novel constitutional theory that those who lose an election are entitled to a coalition government? Does not that encourage Dr. Savimbi in his recalcitrance? Is it not time for the Government to stop pussyfooting about with even-handedness, saying that each side must refrain from violence, when the clear responsibility lies with UNITA to accept the election result and carry on a democratic Government?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has accepted the significance of what Mr. Savimbi said two days ago when he said that the country must move forward on the basis of the election result. Surely that is a great step forward.

Mr. Garnier : My hon. Friend may know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has written to me recently about British training of the South African police. Can my hon. Friend say whether any steps will be taken in the near future to offer such training? Does he accept that training in Britain would enhance the move towards full democracy in South Africa?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : I am afraid that I am not in a position to give my hon. Friend any further information on the subject. There are several British policemen in South Africa as members of both the European Community observer teams--the one for the Goldstone commission and the European Community observer team generally. I am afraid that I cannot answer my hon. Friend's specific point this afternoon.

Mr. Donald Anderson : The Minister will be aware that the multi- racial Commonwealth, which encompasses most of the states in the region, has much credibility in South Africa among all the key players and can be a great force for good in South Africa. In those circumstances why do the Government continue to exclude themselves from the Commonwealth Committee of Foreign Ministers on southern Africa?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : We have no intention at present of joining the Commonwealth Committee of Foreign Ministers on southern Africa.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton : Does my hon. Friend agree that we should have an even-handed policy towards all groups in South Africa and southern Africa? To that end

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does he accept in his position within the Foreign Office that when President Lucas Mangope of Bophuthatswana comes to this country--a man who has sought to establish meaningful democracy in his part of southern Africa--he should have the opportunity, like members of the ANC and other groups in South Africa, of meeting members of the United Kingdom Government?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : The gentleman will be able to make his request in the usual way.

Sir David Steel : Is the Foreign and Commonwealth Office aware of the important statement made the other day in Angola by the director- general of elections himself that in his view there were not enough international observers to make sure that irregularities did not take place ? That is a moral which the Government should pass on to other African countries, notably Kenya, where elections are pending.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : The right hon. Gentleman refers to Kenya. Of course there are a large number of countries where the moral should be considered further. As he will know, the election on 29 December will be observed by monitors and observers from the European Community, from the Commonwealth, and from the United States of America.

Mr. Grocott : Will the Minister take the opportunity in the House today to acknowledge the verdict of all the observers to the Angolan elections that those elections were free and fair ? Will he pay tribute to the Angolan people for conducting those elections after so many years of tragic violence ? Will he now take steps, through the international community, to ensure that UNITA accepts the election results and the fact that it must obey the terms of the peace accord ? In particular, will he ensure that UNITA attends the newly elected Parliament and that its deputies are there to play a full part in the new Angola ?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : As I have said, UNITA has accepted the elections in the form that I have indicated. We hope that the peace process will continue, but I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the elections. We fully support the determination of the United Nations special representative in Angola that both the legislative and presidential elections were generally free and fair.

Hong Kong

11. Mr. Campbell-Savours : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he will next be visiting Hong Kong to discuss relations with China.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Alistair Goodlad) : My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs has no plans at present to visit Hong Kong. However, my right hon. Friend was able to discuss a wide range of Hong Kong issues with the Governor during his recent visit to London.

Mr. Campbell-Savours : Why unnecessarily antagonise the Chinese by adopting such a beligerent tone during the course of negotiations with China? Would not a little bit of subtle diplomacy in the historic tradition of this great country be far more beneficial to British and Hong Kong interests?

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Mr. Goodlad : As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told Vice Premier Zhu Rongji in London last week, the Government fully support the Governor's proposals. We consider that they reflect the wishes of the Hong Kong people and are consistent with the joint declaration of 1984 and the Basic Law. The Governor's aim is to make the Hong Kong Administration more effective and accountable and the electoral system as fair, open and broadly based as possible. He is proposing a modest extension of democracy, consistent with the agreements that we have reached with China. Our policy in dealing with China over Hong Kong has remained the same. We want co- operation and a smooth transition in 1997. We remain ready to discuss the Governor's proposals and it will then be for the Legislative Council in Hong Kong to take a decision.

Mr. Sims : Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the Governor's proposals have been warmly endorsed by the Legislative Council and that opinion polls show that they are fully supported by the people of Hong Kong? If the Government and the People's Republic of China believe that those proposals are in any way incompatible with the joint declaration and the Basic Law, could they be invited to point out where those incompatibilities occur?

Mr. Goodlad : My hon. Friend is extremely knowledgeable about Hong Kong and what he says is absolutely right. It is now time for calm discussion.

Mr. Rogers : Putting aside the issues of the Governor's style and timing, will the Minister assure the House that the Government will stand firm and support him against the substantial pressures that are being put on him? Does he accept that there is much support within the House for the proposals which, as the Minister said, extend the democratic process in Hong Kong?

Mr. Goodlad : I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said. Of course, the Governor has the full support of the British Government and of hon. Members on both sides of the House.

Mr. David Howell : Given that the Beijing Government are showing the minimum possible understanding of what the Governor of Hong Kong is trying to achieve through his reforms, will my right hon. Friend encourage the Governor to explain to the Beijing Government that the moderate democratic reforms proposed are not just consistent--the word that my right hon. Friend used--with the Basic Law but necessary to make Hong Kong operate now and, after 1997, as a special administrative region as part of two systems within one country? Without those reforms, the success of Hong Kong will be jeopardised, to the great detriment of the world and the People's Republic of China.

Mr. Goodlad : My right hon. Friend is right. It is in the interests of Britain, China and the people of Hong Kong that Hong Kong remains successful until 1997 and beyond. The best way to achieve that is through co-operation based on the joint declaration, which is what we are seeking to achieve in the proposals.

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Arms Sales (Iraq)

15. Mr. Mackinlay : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions were held with the United States about the sales of arms to Iraq in the 12 months preceding the invasion of Kuwait ; and what information on the United Kingdom sales of arms to Iraq was volunteered to the United Kingdom's allies following the invasion.

Mr. Hurd : There were discussions at various levels with United States authorities on issues arising from the Iraqi arms procurement programme in the year leading up to

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the invasion of Kuwait. As part of the preparations for the liberation of Kuwait, there was a full exchange of information on all aspects of Iraq's military strength.

Mr. Mackinlay : Is it not a fact that in June and July 1990 the United States Administration requested that the British Government should co-operate in halting the export of two furnaces being constructed in Strathclyde on behalf of the Consarc Engineering Corporation of America? The request was made as the United States intelligence services advised the British Government that the furnaces were to be used to help in the construction of missile components in Iraq.

Mr. Hurd : I would need notice of that question.

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