House of Commons Hansard Debates for 25 Nov 1992

Hansard

House of Commons

Wednesday 25 November 1992

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[ Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

Alliance and Leicester (Girobank) Bill

Read the Third time, and passed.

Midland Metro Bill

[Lords]

Read a Second time, and committed.

City of Bristol (Portishead Docks) Bill

[Lords] (By Order) Order for Third Reading read.

Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified.

To be read the Third time tomorrow.

Oral Answers to Questions

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

Kosovo

1. Mr. Waterson : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the Government's policy towards Kosovo.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Douglas Hogg) : The special group on Kosovo within the internationaconference on the former Yugoslavia is working intensively with both Serbian and Kosovar representatives. We strongly support its efforts. We believe that the Serbian authorities should grant the Kosovars autonomy with full civil rights, and that the Kosovars should accept that.

Mr. Waterson : Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that Kosovo could be the next victim of Serb expansionism? What other measures does he think could be taken, as a matter of urgency, to reduce tension in the area and to protect the 90 per cent. of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo who are being oppressed and denied their civil liberties?

Mr. Hogg : My hon. Friend has made an important point. The issue of the Kosovars was addressed directly by the London conference, and it is now being discussed by the working group in Geneva. It has also been the subject of talks in Kosovo itself. As my hon. Friend may know, there is now a Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe team in Kosovo, whose primary function is to try to defuse tension. We shall explore other possibilities in our attempts to reduce the risk of violence breaking out.

Mr. Wareing : Will the Minister give an assurance, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, that on no account

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will the Government permit the export of arms and military equipment to Albania--equipment that could be used to create a conflagration in Kosovo, thus giving support to the extreme nationalists on both sides of the divide in that troubled province?

Mr. Hogg : We would be very disturbed if we saw any evidence that the Albanian Government were seeking in any way to foment trouble in Kosovo. That would be a very serious development.

Mr. Cormack : Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that the way in which the vast majority of the population in Kosovo are treated is utterly inexcusable and unacceptable? Does he further accept that many of us feel that, if the west had taken rather firmer and more united action last year, the tragedy of Bosnia could perhaps have been prevented? We now face possible tragedies not only in Kosovo, but in Macedonia. Will my right hon. and learned Friend assure me that Her Majesty's Government are well aware of that?

Mr. Hogg : Repressive action by the Serbian forces in Kosovo would indeed be a serious escalation of what is already a very grave situation-- not least because of the risk that such action could pose to adjoining states. That fact would certainly be in the minds of Security Council members if they had to determine what might be the appropriate response to an outbreak of violence in Kosovo.

Sir Russell Johnston : At the end of his answer to the original question, the Minister said that the people in Kosovo must accept Serbian rule, given certain conditions on human rights. That, surely, is an indefensible position. If 90 per cent. of the population in a defined area want to assert self-determination, that is their right, and that is what we have signed up to in the United Nations. Will the Minister change his view?

Mr. Hogg : That is not what we signed up to in the United Nations ; nor is it a correct summary of what we signed up to in the CSCE. There is a serious problem : whether or not one is prepared to unstitch frontiers that have already been agreed and that have been in existence for a very long time. If we embarked on that policy, we would create many greater difficulties in central and eastern Europe more generally. We believe that the proper way to address the position of the Kosovars is by way of autonomy. That is what we are working towards.

Lady Olga Maitland : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the only way to guarantee true peace to the people of Kosovo is to ensure that there are genuinely free and fair elections in Belgrade on 20 December? In that way, Mr. Milosevic could be toppled in his endeavours to carry on with his oppression. Will my right hon. and learned Friend therefore consider giving wholehearted support to Mr. Panic?

Mr. Hogg : I certainly agree that it is important that there should be fair and free elections on 20 December in Serbia, but one should not assume that such elections would not be won by Mr. Milosevic. He might well win them.

Mr. George Robertson : The Minister was careful not to answer the question about the sale to Albania of arms which might be used in Kosovo. Could he possibly give a

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straight answer now to what was a straight question? Did not the British ambassador to Albania send back a message and make it public that he believed that the situation in Kosovo was extremely dangerous? Today, the Financial Times says that the Minister of State

"has not yet instilled into those working under him a strong sense of urgency."

What can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say to reassure the House that Kosovo will not be the next Bosnia?

Mr. Hogg : I have made it plain, in answer to a variety of questions, that we attach great importance to trying to defuse the tension in Kosovo. If there were to be an outbreak of violence, it could involve a number of adjoining states. That is why we placed such a high priority on that subject at the London conference, why we are so firmly behind the talks now going on in Geneva and why we welcome the deployment of the CSCE team in Kosovo. We most certainly will seek to explore other ways of reducing the risk of an outbreak of violence in Kosovo.

Cuba

2. Mr. Ernie Ross : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on United Kingdom relations with Cuba.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Tristan Garel-Jones) : We maintain normal diplomatic and trade relations witCuba.

Mr. Ross : Following yesterday's decision by the General Assembly that it did not accept the extension of extra-territorial jurisdiction by the United States and given that there have been 30 years of stick for Cuba, is it not time that the Government and our European partners began to extend a little carrot? For example, should they not support the decision of the national assembly in Cuba to hold, for the first time in 30 years, direct and secret elections for the municipalities and the national assembly? Is it not time that the Minister overcame his personal aggro against Cuba and got down to normalising relations with that country?

Mr. Garel-Jones : We are strongly opposed to the extra-territorial provisions in the Cuban Democracy Act. In company with the majority of our European partners, we abstained in the vote on the Cuban resolution. The hon. Gentleman must not be deceived, in his enthusiasm for supporting Fidel Castro, by the recent electoral reforms regarding multiple-candidate elections to the national assembly. They are purely cosmetic. President Castro has made it clear that there will be no change to the one-party system in Cuba. I do admire the hon. Gentleman--even the Soviet Union has now abandoned Fidel Castro's regime, yet he remains constant to it.

Bosnia

3. Mr. Mullin : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with his EC colleagues regarding the situation in Bosnia ; and if he will make a statement.

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Douglas Hurd) : The situation in Bosnia has been discussed at every recent meeting of European

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Community Foreign Ministers, most recently in Brussels on 9 November and with Western European Union partners in Rome on 20 November.

Mr. Mullin : No one would wish to pretend that the situation in Bosnia is simple ; far from it. Although we are arming dictatorships as far apart as Indonesia and Saudi Arabia--we were secretly training terrorists in Cambodia until the autumn of 1989--is there nothing that we can do to help the people of Bosnia to resist the ethnic cleansers?

Mr. Hurd : Not by relaxing the arms embargo ; but of course we must help. There are four things that we should do. One is to keep up the pressures to end the war, and the hon. Gentleman will have seen the increase in sanctions and last week's Adriatic stop-and-search resolution. Another is to get the humanitarian help through, including food and medicines, which is what the Cheshires are doing. We can also provide that help ; the United Kingdom's assistance to the former Yugoslavia is £79 million to date. We must also create the basis for a political settlement, which is what Lord Owen and Cyrus Vance are doing all the time on our behalf. Those are the four main pressures that we must continue to apply.

Mr. Colvin : Will my right hon. Friend ensure that, in his discussions with our EC partners, he has their agreement that, in seeking a solution to the problem in Bosnia, partitioning of that country is completely ruled out, as that would only marginalise the Muslim population and could lead to a holy war, which would drag in other countries?

Mr. Hurd : It is, I hope, clearly understood that our European partners, the United States and the United Nations will not accept the partitioning of Bosnia-Herzegovina between Serbia and Croatia.

Mr. Macdonald : Does the Foreign Secretary recall the Minister of State, the right hon. and learned Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg), telling the House on 16 November that the Government had no evidence of any breaches of the air exclusion zone over Bosnia? Has the Foreign Secretary seen the report in The Times yesterday where Mr. Cedric Thornberry, the deputy head of the United Nations protection force, says that there have been more than 100 breaches of the exclusion zone in the past month? Were the Government aware of those breaches? Now that they are aware of them, will they return to the Security Council and get effective action to stop them?

Mr. Hurd : My right hon. and learned Friend and the hon. Gentleman are talking about two separate things. My right hon. and learned Friend was talking about attack missions--the use of planes based on airfields for attack. The hon. Gentleman is talking about a different category. If there are Serb air attacks from those fields, the hon. Gentleman is right--we will have to go back to the Security Council for further measures.

Mr. Churchill : Is it not unprecedented that the victims of aggression--the Bosnian Muslims--should be subjected to a United Nations arms embargo? Is it not the inevitable consequence of that policy that they will relentlessly be driven out of the positions that they hold and their positions will be overrun, adding to the number of refugees on the move in Europe which has been unprecedented since the second world war?

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Mr. Hurd : The arms embargo applies to all parties. If the embargo is relaxed for one party, in practice it will have to be relaxed for all. I do not believe that that would be a step forward in the search for either peace or justice in the former Yugoslavia.

Dr. John Cunningham : As the whole case of the European Community and the United Nations in seeking a solution to the tragedy in Bosnia is based on the peace process and is buttressed by mandatory arms embargos and economic sanctions against Serbia, will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that none of our European Community partners is breaching that embargo? Why are at least some of our European partners breaking the economic sanctions and turning a blind eye to the embargo? Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will take urgent steps to stop the breaches?

Finally, in connection with the tragedy in the former Yugoslavia, is it not ominous that on three occasions this afternoon the Minister of State, the right hon. and learned Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg), refused to rule out the sale of arms to Albania?

Mr. Hurd : I agree with the hon. Gentleman's first point. Where there is evidence that either part of the mandatory embargo--the supply of arms to any of the parties, or trade in embargoed items to Serbia and Montenegro--has been broken, that evidence must be followed through, whoever pointed the finger, and those breaches must be stopped. I shall not add to what my right hon. and learned Friend said about the supply of arms.

Mr. Marlow : Can we be a little less diplomatic and a little more blunt? Is not the reality that the Serbs are swimming in the arms of the Yugoslav army? They have the arms and they are the aggressors. The Bosnians are the victims and they have no arms. If there were any justice in this world, we would offer our support to the victims and allow them to defend themselves with arms, rather than sustaining the aggressors. Have we in this country lost our courage?

Mr. Hurd : That is not what would happen. The whole country of Bosnia-Herzegovina is awash with arms. The arms are in the hands of central commands and warlords throughout the country and the various denominations who are not under any control. We would not do any service to the people of Bosnia-Herzegovina, whatever their origins, if we increased the supply of arms into that chaotic country. That is the view of all our partners in the European Community and of the United States.

Russia

4. Mr. Elletson : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he had with President Yeltsin, during his recent visit to the United Kingdom, about the changes in Russian foreign policy which were announced in his speech to the Collegium of the Russian Foreign Ministry on 27 October ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Douglas Hogg : My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister discussed a wide range of current international questions with President Yeltsin on 9 November. Various foreign policy issues were also discussed during my meeting with the Russian Foreign Minister on 10 November.

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Mr. Elletson : Will my right hon. and learned Friend make it clear to the Russian Government that any toughening of Russian foreign policy in the Baltic states, such as was envisaged in President Yeltsin's speech to the Collegium of the Russian Foreign Ministry, will be viewed with grave concern by Her Majesty's Government? Will he also assure the House that the Government will continue to press the Russian Government for the complete withdrawal of Russian troops from the Baltic states as quickly as possible?

Mr. Hogg : I always pay considerable attention to what my hon. Friend says about Russia. He is one of the few Members of Parliament who speaks Russian and has a long-standing knowledge of that country. The answer to his question is yes. We attach great importance to the early withdrawal of Russian troops from the Baltic states. That matter was raised on several occasions by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and others. We shall continue to press the Russian Government on that point. Their response is that they intend to withdraw and the process of withdrawal has only been suspended.

Mr. Winnick : Is there common agreement between Russia and the United Kingdom on combating racism and fascism in Europe? When the Minister meets his colleagues, including the Russian Foreign Minister, will there be an opportunity to demonstrate our horror at what happened in Germany at the weekend? A 51-year-old woman, a 10-year-old child and a 15-year-old child were burned to death for no other reason than that they happened to be Turkish. Is it not necessary for us to demonstrate once again that fascism and racism must be fought from the start, or we shall pay the penalty, as we have done recently?

Mr. Hogg : The events to which the hon. Gentleman refers were indeed dreadful. That fact is fully appreciated by the German Government, who condemned the events as strongly as the hon. Gentleman does. Fighting facism and racism are major priorities of any civilised Government, including the Russian Government. Those principles are clearly enshrined in the CSCE agreements to which the Russian Government and, I am glad to say, the British Government fully subscribed.

Mr. Anthony Coombs : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that one of the most potentially destabilising regimes in the middle east is Iran, which is building up its military arsenal, especially with submarines, which come primarily from Russia? Does he agree that Boris Yeltsin must take every possible action to ensure that that flow of arms is stopped, so that what is already a hotbed in the region is not further destabilised?

Mr. Hogg : My hon. Friend makes an important point. There is no doubt that the Government of Iran have ambitions to become the dominant power in the Gulf region. It is also certain that they are in the process of acquiring arms to foster that strategic objective. My hon. Friend referred to the sale of Russian submarines. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister explicitly raised that question with the Russian President, Mr. Yeltsin.

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Iraq (Exports)

5. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will list the dates of each meeting held by the former Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the right hon. Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Waldegrave), with private sector companies concerning exports to Iraq, during his tenure of office.

Mr. Hurd : So far as I am aware, the only official meeting that my right hon. Friend held with a private company about exports to Iraq was a presentation by British Aerospace on 8 June 1989 at the Ministry of Defence on a proposal for the sale of Hawk to Iraq. Permission for the sale was later refused.

Mr. Dalyell : Is it not clear from the interdepartmental committee meeting of 1 November 1989 between the right hon. Member for Bristol, West, Alan Clark and Lord Trefgarne that, although the right hon. Gentleman tried to impose the condition that he did not want to have to answer awkward questions in Parliament, he was absolutely immersed in the problems of Matrix Churchill? In view of what he knew, how can it have been proper to allow the prosecution of three directors whom the right hon. Gentleman and many other people in the Government must have known had acted in concert with Government opinions and policy? How could those directors have been allowed to get very near to gaol?

Mr. Hurd : Those matters were fully discussed in the House on Monday, and everything that the hon. Gentleman has said falls within the scope of Lord Justice Scott's inquiry. That is the right place to carry those points further.

Miss Emma Nicholson : I have seen many Russian armaments in southern Iraq and, given the potential for conflict in Iraq, does my right hon. Friend agree that the European Community would be best placed to make early decisions on peacekeeping missions to Iraq and other areas of the world once the Maastricht treaty has been accepted?

Mr. Hurd : We shall certainly be better able to act together in the areas--this may be one--in which we all have a common purpose and can agree on a common way of achieving it. For exercises such as those to which my hon. Friend referred to have any validity, they would also need the support of the Security Council. Meanwhile, there is a crisis in southern Iraq, to which my hon. Friend has often drawn attention, which requires the kind of effort which we have been able to mount so far.

Dr. John Cunningham : Everyone knows that, as Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the right hon. Gentleman had overall responsibility for the arms sales guidelines. We know that when those guidelines were fundamentally and importantly changed, he did not inform the House of Commons. Did he tell the Prime Minister of that important and fundamental change?

Mr. Hurd : The guidelines were not changed. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade took the House through the sequence of events--the meeting in July 1990 and the fact that the decision was never implemented.

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Mr. Dalyell : On a point of order, Madam Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory cop-out of the Foreign Secretary's reply, I hope to raise the matter on the Adjournment of the House.

Middle East Peace Talks

6. Mr. Hicks : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what initiatives he has taken to assist the middle east peace talks ; and if he will make a statement.

12. Mr. Day : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the current status of the middle east peace process.

14. Mr. Carrington : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the progress towards peace in the middle east.

Mr. Hurd : The seventh round of bilateral negotiations between Israeli and Arab delegations ended in Washington on the 20 of November. The negotiations tackled substance. All sides are, in our view, seriously engaged. Our objective has been, and remains, to support the process. We have had detailed meetings with all the parties and have played an active role, through teams at each of the bilateral rounds and in all the multilateral working groups.

Mr. Hicks : As the incoming United States Administration will understandably require time in order to formulate their position and policy, does that not make it all the more incumbent on European Community nations to ensure the momentum of the talks, not least to safeguard the requirements and position of the Palestinians?

Mr. Hurd : Certainly, we must try to ensure that the impetus of the talks is maintained even through the change in the United States Administration. The Israelis and Palestinians are now talking substance together and that is a huge advance. It is difficult for the Palestinians ; they are being asked to discuss proposals for an interim self-governing authority. We hope that they will do that and that the discussions will succeed.

Mr. Day : Can my right hon. Friend confirm that it remains British policy to seek an end to the Arab boycott? Will he impart that information to Mr. Rabin when he makes his very welcome visit to this country? When will my right hon. Friend be able to report to the House about the response from the Arab states to British overtures on that point? If no progress has been made, will he be willing to raise the matter at European level?

Mr. Hurd : We look forward to Mr. Rabin's visit which will be an important and welcome occasion. We are in action with our EC partners in Arab capitals to secure an end to the boycott. We think that that is justified, partly in response to the action of the Israeli Government in suspending settlements. That action has been only partial and it would be very helpful if they could completely suspend settlement activities, including those in eastern Jerusalem.

Mr. Carrington : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the President of the United States plays a vital role in

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brokering an agreement between the Israelis and the Palestinians? Will my right hon. Friend have urgent discussions with

President-elect Clinton's transitional team to ensure that it is aware of the vital importance of obtaining a just settlement for the Palestinians without which no lasting peace is possible in the middle east?

Mr. Hurd : Yes. We will increasingly be in touch with Governor Clinton's transitional team and we will certainly want to discuss the need to keep up the impetus in the peace process and continue what President Bush and Secretary Baker have done in trying to strike, when preparing the meetings, a reasonable balance between the requirements of Israel, the Palestinians and other Arabs.

Mr. Janner : May I thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said about the Arab boycott? He is certainly right. Will he tell us what steps he has taken to achieve an end to the boycott and what results he has obtained?

Mr. Hurd : We have pointed out to our Arab friends that we believe that the time has come to end the boycott and we await their reply.

Mr. Skinner : Why should anyone in the middle east believe a word that the Foreign Secretary says when the guidelines regarding the Matrix Churchill affair were changed and when, in the House today, both the Foreign Secretary and his junior Minister refused to answer questions about whether they will sell arms to Albania? If he will not come clean on that and uses the weasel words, why should anyone in the middle east believe him?

Mr. Hurd : We have dealt with arms for Albania to the extent that they are relevant. The other matter is a matter for Lord Justice Scott.

Mr. Ernie Ross : Before the debate on the Arab boycott gets out of hand, will the Secretary of State remind the House that there is an absolute difference between international law which says that the settlements on the west bank are illegal, as are deportations, and relations between countries no matter where they are? The two things are not exactly the same.

Mr. Hurd : I am sorry, but I do not follow the hon. Gentleman. Either I am particularly slow, or the hon. Gentleman is not as lucid as he usually is.

We believe that the settlements are illegal--we have said that--and that, quite apart from their legality or illegality, they have clearly proved over the years to be one of the main obstacles to the peace process.

Mr. Batiste : Has my right hon. Friend discussed with our partners in the European Community his initiative to end the Arab boycott? Does he have their unanimous support in seeking that objective as well?

Mr. Hurd : The answer to both parts of that question is yes.

Gibraltar

7. Dr. Marek : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is his policy on deciding which elements of EC legislation applicable to Gibraltar are internal matters for the Gibraltarian Government.

Mr. Garel-Jones : The United Kingdom is responsible before the European Court of Justice for Gibraltar's

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compliance with EC law. In practice, the bulk of EC legislation is implemented by local legislation in Gibraltar after consultations between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of Gibraltar.

Dr. Marek : Does the Minister accept that the Gibraltar Constitution Order 1969 led Gibraltar and a lot of us to believe that more self- government in respect of defined domestic matters would be given to the people of Gibraltar over the course of time and that it would be wholly wrong if such matters were prevented from being decided in Gibraltar simply because of Gibraltar's membership of the European Community as a colony of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Garel-Jones : The hon. Gentleman makes a very fair point, but he will be aware that the 1969 constitution pre-dates not only the accession of the United Kingdom and, through it, Gibraltar into the European Community but the accession of Spain into the European Community. It is for that reason that the Chief Minister agrees that the present situation is unsatisfactory. We are having fruitful discussions with him to see how we can define those matters in a way that gives Gibraltar the widest autonomy possible consistent with meeting the EC obligations for which we are responsible before the European Court of Justice.

Mr. Dickens : Does my right hon. Friend agree that these are complex issues because of the EC status of Gibraltar and the United Kingdom constitution, and that those items will have to be discussed with very great care, step by step on their own merits?

Mr. Garel-Jones : Yes. I agree with my hon. Friend. The cornerstone of our discussions with the Chief Minister must be that Gibraltar's membership of the European Community, to which the Gibraltar Government and the Gibraltar people are very strongly attached, cannot be called into question.

Mr. Beggs : Has the Secretary of State considered whether, under EC legislation, internal legislation in Gibraltar or United Kingdom legislation, the circumstances of the collapse of International Investments Ltd. (Gibraltar) can be investigated, bearing in mind the fact that the vast majority of those who were defrauded were British citizens? Will he undertake to ensure that they ultimately achieve justice?

Mr. Garel-Jones : I can give the hon. Gentleman the undertaking that the standards of financial propriety in Gibraltar are of the very highest. Indeed, the discussions that we are now having with the Chief Minister are to ensure that Gibraltar is able to implement the necessary standards of control of those matters that the single market will demand. I know that that is the intention of the Gibraltar Government and of Her Majesty's Government. I am sure that the protections that flow from that for investors will be properly seen to by the Government of Gibraltar.

Mr. Adley : Does my right hon. Friend accept that--I have not precisely checked the mathematics--the total electorate of Gibraltar is rather fewer than the number of people in my constituency who voted for me? There are more than 80 million people in Britain and Spain, many of whose interests, together with those in the rest of Europe, are often obstructed by the Gibraltar Government's

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dogmatic views on issues such as the airport. Will my right hon. Friend please bear it in mind that the people of Europe in general and the people of Britain and Spain in particular also have an interest in the matter?

Mr. Garel-Jones : I do not accept my hon. Friend's point. The position of Gibraltar inside the Community, as I have said, pre-dates Spanish entry. We have suffered in recent months, through the external frontiers convention, from an inability of Spain to accept that fact. It is fact which we are determined to uphold.

Public Immunity Certificates

8. Mr. Bill Michie : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on his Department's signing of public immunity certificates.

Mr. Hurd : As my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General has made clear, public interest immunity must be claimed for departmental papers if they fall within a recognised class or contain material which it would in principle be contrary to the public interest to disclose. A Minister will only sign a certificate after he has personally considered whether papers fall within the claim. It is for the court to determine whether the claim is valid and, if so, to balance the public interest in confidentiality against the interest of justice in the particular case.

Mr. Michie : In this intriguing "Who dun it?"--the inquiry taking place which has fairly serious consequences--does it not seem strange that the signing of the immunity certificates was left to what one could describe as a junior Minister, and that they were not signed by the Secretary of State or the Minister of State? We have to assume that either the Secretary of State and his side-kick were not very au fait with what was happening, that they did not want to know about it, or that they wanted a scapegoat if something went wrong. Those certificates were signed and could have sent innocent people to prison.

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