House of Commons Hansard Debates for 9 Nov 1992

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION

National Audit Office

24. Mr. Denham : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission if he will make a statement on the recruitment of information technology specialists by the NAO.

Sir Peter Hordern (Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission) : The recruitment of staff to meet the needs of the National Audit Office is a matter for the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Comptroller and Auditor General has, however, told me that he does not normally consider it the most efficient way of organising its resources to recruit information technology specialists for permanent retention on his staff.

Mr. Denham : Does the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission share my concern at the apparently endless string of computer purchase scandals in the national health service, including the £43 million recently wasted by the Wessex regional health authority, the Healthtrac computer system in the west midlands, and now the London ambulance service computer breakdown? Does he accept that all those computer scandals first came to light not by means of national health service internal audits or Government Department audits but by means of media attention? Will he therefore discuss with the National Audit Office and the Comptroller and Auditor General the desirability of establishing a specialist team to examine national health service computer services until we can all be satisfied that the money is being used effectively and efficiently and not wasted, as it appears to be at the moment?

Sir Peter Hordern : I am not sure about the origin of the reports, but I know that in 1990 the National Audit Office carried out an examination of managing computer projects in the national health service and that the matter was followed up by the Public Accounts Committee. Furthermore, I know that the National Audit Office will examine the matter again if the PAC thinks it right. The

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National Audit Office and the Comptroller and Auditor General recruit specialist information technology experts as and when necessary.

25. Dr. Wright : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission if he will review the number of value-for-money audits undertaken annually by the National Audit Office.

Sir Peter Hordern : The Public Accounts Commission reviews annually the corporate plan of the National Audit Office, which shows the balance of activities and expenditure expected over the future five-year period. After considering the latest corporate plan in July, the commission endorsed the National Audit Office's proposal to undertake 50 value-for-money audits in 1993-94.

Dr. Wright : Why does the chairman of the Public Accounts Commission think that approximately 50 value-for-money audits per year by the National Audit Office is considered, in the NAO's words, "an appropriate level" when there are volumes and varieties of work available to be done which is not at present undertaken? The National Audit Office has no access to the Civil List or to the security services. It has done no work on opted-out schools or on NHS trusts. It has done very little work on the proliferation of executive agencies, and increasing volumes of its work are being privatised and contracted out. Given the volume of work that there is to be done, why are a mere 50 value-for-money audits per year thought to be sufficient?

Sir Peter Hordern : The number has increased from 33 five years ago to 50 now. The Public Accounts Commission, on the advice of the Public Accounts Committee, believes that that is the appropriate number. It is partly a question of staff and resources. The hon. Gentleman raised a number of matters that the Comptroller and Auditor General would not in any event investigate. It is a matter of balance, but the commission believes that the Comptroller and Auditor General and the National Audit Office have it about right. If the hon. Gentleman believes that there are particular areas which the Comptroller and Auditor General should investigate, I have no doubt that he will let them know and I shall see to it that the Comptroller and Auditor General hears about the hon. Gentleman's request.

Mr. Ian Bruce : Has my hon. Friend's Committee dealt with Ministry of Defence relocation projects? It appears that much public money--

Madam Speaker : Order. I regret that the hon. Gentleman's question is not in order. If he can relate it more directly to Question 25, of course I shall hear him.

Mr. Bruce : I thank you, Madam Speaker, for your help. I was specifically asking my hon. Friend about value-for-money audits, because if a Department tries to make savings by relocating staff such audits must ensure that savings proposed in studies are achieved.

Sir Peter Hordern : The Comptroller and Auditor General frequently makes findings about the Ministry of Defence, especially on housing and relocation matters, but I will ensure that my hon. Friend's remarks are brought to the attention of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

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HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION

Refreshment Department

26. Mr. Flynn : To ask the right hon. Member for

Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, if he will make a statement on (a) the expenditure and (b) the staffing levels of the Refreshment Department for 1992-93.

Mr. A. J. Beith (on behalf of the House of Commons Commission) : The expenditure figures for the current financial year are not yet available. I am advised that the total number of staff employed in the Refreshment Department is 311, of whom 25 are in non-industrial grades.

Mr. Flynn : Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me why, three years ago, I was given the political affiliations of Members booking the House of Commons Dining Rooms but now that information has become a state secret? As one would expect, the political affiliation of Members booking the Rooms is overwhelmingly Conservative. Is the reason for the new secrecy a sense of guilt because so many commercial companies are being royally entertained in our subsidised facilities while pensioners and disabled people who come to the House cannot enjoy the simple hospitality of a place to shelter or a cup of tea?

Madam Speaker : Order. I understand the passionate feelings of the hon. Member, but his question does not relate to the question on the Order Paper.

Mr. Beith : These are primarily matters for the Catering Committee, which I understand is reviewing banqueting arrangements. Responsibility rests with the Member who makes the booking.

Mr. John Marshall : Will the right hon. Gentleman join me in thanking the staff of the Refreshment Department for the jolly long hours of work that they put in and for the fact that they are always cheerful at whatever time of night they are asked to serve food?

Mr. Beith : Yes, with pleasure.

Day Nursery

27. Ms. Hoey : To ask the right hon. Member for Berwick-on-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what progress is being made towards the establishment of a day nursery in the House.

Mr. Beith : The Commission has asked the Accommodation and Works Select Committee to establish whether accommodation can be found for a creche within the parliamentary estate. The Committee has passed a resolution to instruct the relevant officers of the House to continue their attempts to identify suitable accommodation. There is the further possibility that arrangements could be made in conjunction with Whitehall Departments which are also seeking accommodation in the Westminster area for the same purpose. I understand that some progress has been made in identifying suitable accommodation for such a creche. Their decisions are still at a preliminary stage. Should suitable proposals result from either initiative, they will be put to the relevant Committees and to the Commission.

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Ms. Hoey : I thank the right hon. Member for that sympathetic response, but sympathy and scant progress are not enough. This has been going on for a long time. Does the hon. Member agree that the best solution might be for members of the all-party nursery sub-committee to walk around with some of the gentlemen who chair those Committees and look at the proposed accommodation? It does not seem plausible that we cannot find suitable accommodation in the Palace of Westminster to be adapted for this necessary purpose. Is the right hon. Member aware of the rumour that a betting shop would have higher priority than a nursery? If that rumour is true, will he confirm that he would not support that view?

Mr. Beith : There is no basis for that rumour. The one thing that is taking priority in accommodation in the parliamentary estate is accommodation for hon. Members and staff who do not have adequate accommodation at present. The hon. Lady's suggestion that hon. Members who have involved themselves in the issue might make suggestions and proposals to the Accommodation and Works Select Committee would be useful to follow up.

Buying British

28. Mr. Steen : To ask the right hon. Member for

Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what is his policy towards buying British products for use in the Palace of Westminster.

Mr. Beith : British products are extensively used in all Departments of the House. It is the practice to purchase British products when they offer good value for money, taking into account quality, delivery and price.

Mr. Steen : Although the right hon. Gentleman makes that reply, he must be aware that there is an EC directive that is applied completely unfairly and results in the House tending to buy foreign goods even though there are English goods-- [Hon. Members :-- "British".]--British goods which are as good if not better? Although the price may be a little higher, the quality is as good. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that until all the other European countries stop buying their own goods, as France and Germany always do, we should continue to buy British goods? We should set an example in Parliament until the enforcement procedures in Europe ensure that all European countries play by the rules.

Mr. Beith : I am not aware of any examples of British products that have been turned down on those grounds. Large contracts are subject to EC and GATT rules, which affect the placing of large contracts in a nationally discriminatory way, and the Commission must obey the law. If there are any particular cases, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will bring them to the attention of the appropriate Department.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Sittings of the House

35. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he has any plans to introduce proposals to terminate House of Commons business not later than 10 pm on each sitting day ; and if he will make a statement.

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The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton) : I imagine that my hon. Friend has in minone of the proposals in the report of the Select Committee on Sittings of the House. As I told my right hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Jopling), who chaired the Committee, at last Thursday's business questions, I hope to identify a basis of agreement for discussion through the usual channels, with the aim of being in a position to bring forward substantive motions at an early stage.

Mr. Greenway : Does my right hon. Friend agree that of all the proposals in the report by the Committee chaired by my right hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale, the proposal on sittings is perhaps one of the most important? Does he agree, from his long years in the House, that the House tends to diminish rather than increase in efficiency as the hour passes 10 pm and the sitting goes on into the small hours? That cannot be good for the nation or for anybody else.

Mr. Newton : I am not sure that I can assent to a proposition about the diminishing efficiency of the House at particular times of the day, although I am aware of the widespread public sharing of my hon. Friend's view. It is worth noting, as a matter of practice, that since the House resumed on 19 October there have been only two occasions on which the House has not adjourned before 11.5 pm, which is a significant improvement on some previous experiences. On Thursday evenings, which I know are one of the points of concern to many hon. Members, the House has adjourned at 10.30 pm--standard time--on each occasion so far.

Mr. Maxton : Does the Leader of the House agree that the best way to ensure that the House rises by 10 pm on most evenings would be to reduce the business carried out in the House? Does he agree that the quickest and easiest way to do that would be to establish legislative assemblies in Scotland and in Wales to take on the business presently carried out in the House for those nations?

Mr. Newton : The first part of the hon. Gentleman's question is in one sense unanswerable. It must be emphasised that our constituents not only express the wish that we should sit reasonable hours, but want to see a reasonable amount of business carried through the House. It is always a question of striking the right balance. I am afraid that I cannot agree--I see from the pleased expression on the hon. Gentleman's face that he would not expect me to agree--to the second part of this proposition as to how we might seek to achieve that.

Mr. Peter Bottomley : Does my right hon. Friend accept that although many of us would like the House normally to stop at 10 pm, there are certain matters on which there is wide bipartisan agreement? If it is necessary for a Committee of the Whole House to sit beyond 10 pm on certain matters for which most of our people--Labour and Tory--worked at the previous election, would that not be acceptable?

Mr. Newton : My hon. Friend, with that characteristically mischievous expression on his face, is tempting me to make some very inflammatory remarks. I do not intend to be drawn on to that ground.

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EC Legislation Committee (Visits)

36. Mr. Enright : To ask the Lord President of the Council what proposals he has to extend the ability of individual members of the European Legislation Committee to visit Brussels.

Mr. Newton : Individual members of the European Legislation Committee can benefit from the arrangements agreed in the resolution of the House of 6 December 1991 on travel by members to European Community institutions providing for one trip per member each year to visit one of the Community institutions. As those arrangements were introduced only last December, it would be premature to consider extending them.

Mr. Enright : Does the Lord President agree that that puts Members of this House at a considerable disadvantage, for example, in relation to our German counterparts? If we are to be enabled to fulfil subsidiarity properly, we should be able to travel appropriately in relation to the amount of legislation being considered by the Community at any particular time.

Mr. Newton : As I have said, it is still less than a year since, on a motion moved by my predecessor, the House agreed to the improved arrangements that I have just outlined in my reply. The European Legislation Committee collectively is free to apply, under the usual arrangements, for funding of overseas travel by Select Committees.

EC Legislation

38. Dr. Godman : To ask the Lord President of the Council what plans he has to modify the methods of parliamentary scrutiny of European Community legislation and of the Council's minutes of proceedings ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Newton : The Government have recentlyannounced that they will expand their explanatory memoranda on EC documents to cover the question of subsidiarity. I have no present plans for any further changes, though I keep the procedures under review.

Dr. Godman : In the interests of greater openness of the deliberations of Council meetings, which the Prime Minister supported at the Birmingham Council, will the Lord President arrange for copies of the minutes of proceedings of Council meetings to be placed in the Library? Will he also impress on his colleagues the fact that the rules of the Council allow for such meetings to be public? In terms of more openness, would it not make good sense to have at least part of Council meetings conducted in public, as article 3 of the Council's rules allows for that decision to be made?

Mr. Newton : From his involvement in a Standing Committee and his known interest in these matters, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that under the Council's rules of procedure Council minutes are confidential and do not fall within the definition of depositable documents. That is clearly not something which I or any other member of the British Government can change at will. However, the hon. Gentleman will be aware of what was said at Birmingham about greater openness and the fact that that is to be discussed further at Edinburgh. The right course

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for me is to take delivery of the hon. Gentleman's suggestions as suggestions which clearly should be considered in that context.

Finance and Service Committee

39. Mr. Thurnham : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement on the work of the Finance and Services Committee.

40. Mr. John Greenway : To ask the Lord President of the Council when he expects the Finance and Services Committee to make progress on implementation of the Ibbs report.

Mr. Newton : The Finance and Services Committee has not yet been nominated.

Mr. Thurnham : Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is high time that the constitution and operation of that Committee was sorted out? Everyone outside the House has been expected to tighten their belts and operate more efficiently. Surely that should also apply to us in this place.

Mr. Newton : I certainly hope that it will be possible to complete the discussions associated with that matter in a way which will enable progress to be made before too long. However, I would not want my hon. Friend to think that the fact that the Committee has not yet been nominated in any way diminishes the drive by the House of Commons Commission and by the Select Committees on Accommodation and Works, on Administration and on Catering in pursuing vigorously their endeavours to improve the efficiency with which the resources available to the House are used.

Mr. John Greenway : I understand that it will be a duty of the Committee when it is established to consider the extent to which the parliamentary channel should be available around the Palace of Westminster. My right hon. Friend will know that many of us still occupy offices which are a good five or six minutes walk away from the Chamber. I appreciate the point that we keep fit by walking to and fro, particularly when there are many Divisions, but it would be helpful if the parliamentary channel were available, not necessarily in every hon. Member's office, but in certain selected rooms around this place.

Mr. Newton : I am not sure that my hon. Friend is right in thinking that it is primarily a matter for the Finance and Services Committee. As Chairman of the Broadcasting Committee, and from my knowledge of the work being done both by the Accommodation and Works Committee and by the Information Committee, I can assure my hon. Friend that we are all aware of the desirability of reaching conclusions on matters of the kind that he has in mind.

Summer Adjournment

41. Mr. Mackinlay : To ask the Lord President of the Council what representations he has had from people and bodies outside the House about the length of this summer's Adjournment.

Mr. Newton : I have received several letters from members of the public commenting on the length of this summer's Adjournment. I understand that a number are received every year.

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Mr. Mackinlay : Does the Leader of the House accept that many hon. Members feel acutely embarrassed about the inordinately excessive summer recess and consider that it makes a farce of our parliamentary role of checking the Executive? For instance, during the summer recess many things were sneaked through by the Government, which were referred to in the press but not on the Floor of the House. That is indefensible. Two examples are the unexplained dismissal by the Prime Minister of a senior civil servant, Peter Kemp, and the gross overspending by the Ministry of Defence on HMS Fort Victoria, commonly known as HMS De Lorean.

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Mr. Newton : The hon. Gentleman is a new colleague of mine in Essex, though I shall not call even him Essex man in this context. We have become familiar with the rather abrasive way in which he puts his questions and I do not wish to be taken to accept his suggestion, but he might perhaps have a word with his hon. Friends who have persistently pressed my predecessors over the years for Parliament to rise earlier in the summer so that they can have a reasonable holiday with their children.

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