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House of Commons
Monday 9 November 1992
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
Selection
Ordered,
That Sir Marcus Fox and Sir Giles Shaw be discharged from the Committee of Selection and Mr. Andrew Bowden and Mr. Richard Tracey be added to the Committee.-- [Mr. Patnick.]
Oral Answers to Questions
NATIONAL HERITAGE
National Lottery
1. Mr. Hoyle : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what effect he estimates the introduction of the national lottery will have on charitable income.
The Secretary of State for National Heritage (Mr. Peter Brooke) : Charities will be one of the main beneficiaries of the national lottery.
Mr. Hoyle : Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that 85 per cent. of the money raised by the national lottery will go in taxes, administration and prize money and that only 15 per cent. will go not just to charities but to sports, the arts, heritage and so on? Given those figures, is it not right that charities should be alarmed that the introduction of a national lottery would mean a loss of £232 million which would not be compensated for by what they received from the lottery?
Mr. Brooke : I am conscious that statistics on the outcome have been bandied around, but, until we publish the Bill, people will not even be able to see the original indicative figures.
I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern. Representatives of the National Council for Voluntary Organisations will see me this coming week, when they can argue their case. I shall listen to them carefully.
Mr. Alan Howarth : In welcoming the Government's intention that charities should receive a fair share of the proceeds of the national lottery, may I ask my right hon. Friend to ensure that the system for distributing the funds takes careful account of the interests of charities that have been in the practice of running lotteries and whose income could be significantly hit by the advent of a national lottery?
Mr. Brooke : I give my hon. Friend the assurance that that is one of the considerations that we will take into account.
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Mr. Kilfoyle : Will the Secretary of State publish the GAH Group report, commissioned by the Department to inquire into aspects and effects of the national lottery?
Mr. Brooke : If I were to do so, I should be going back on an answer that I have already given in the House. That was confidential advice to the Government, to inform our decision making on the lottery.
Mr. Jessel : Is my right hon. Friend aware that if the national lottery is to flourish as we all want it to do, people must want to buy tickets and they must know, therefore, that a large proportion of what they are paying will go to charities, the arts or sport? Is he further aware that many of us feel that it is essential to make certain that the Treasury is not allowed to kill the goose that lays the golden egg by taxing the lottery too heavily?
Mr. Brooke : I would not for the moment trespass on the preserves of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but if my hon. Friend felt inclined to make a representation to my right hon. Friend, I do not think that it would do any harm to the cause.
Mr. Frank Field : Does the Secretary of State accept that if the national lottery is a rip-roaring success, that will bring little joy to those of our constituents who work in the pools industry? What representations has he received from those who promote that industry? Will he give them a guarantee that when the national lottery is set up, those people will compete with it on equal terms when selling tickets?
Mr. Brooke : I totally understand the hon. Gentleman's question, not least because of the part of the country that he represents. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State has already met some of those involved, and I expect to do so, too. We shall pay close attention to what they say, but I shall not give advance commitments about the outcome.
Mr. Nigel Evans : I welcome the introduction of the national lottery. Will my right hon. Friend pay some regard to community sporting facilities in rural areas, particularly swimming pools, which are expensive for such areas, and community youth soccer sites, many of which are supported by thousands of mums and dads who need support from something like a national lottery?
Mr. Brooke : I understand my hon. Friend's interest, but the distribution of the funds that emerge from the lottery will be in the hands of other than the Government's and I am confident that those involved will receive many representations when their identity is known.
Nonconformist Chapels
2. Mr. Beith : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what recent discussions he has had about the conservation of historic nonconformist chapels.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for National Heritage (Mr. Robert Key) : Several, some with the right hon. Gentleman. I warmly welcome the creation of the Historic Chapels Trust.
Mr. Beith : I welcome the creation of the trust and hope that it will soon be able to save some very special examples of nonconformist architecture. Will the Minister look again at discussions about ecclesiastical exemption in the
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light of the fact that a fine Georgian Baptist chapel had its Georgian fittings removed and destroyed and the fact that, under the Government's proposals, there is nothing that would help to discourage that sort of thing?Mr. Key : I think that the right hon. Gentleman is referring to Great Giddings. That was a tragedy, but it helped to inform consideration of the public consultation which took place in February on ecclesiastical exemption. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will, I hope, reach conclusions quite soon.
Mrs. Clwyd : When the Minister next speaks to Mr. Jocelyn Stevens about conservation, will he remind him that although Mr. Stevens may consider it macho to foster his image as an asset stripper and an axe man, that image does not fit in well with being custodian of our national heritage? As English Heritage appears to be reneging on its legal purpose, is the Minister convinced that it can continue to pursue its public functions as an agency of government?
Mr. Key : May I start by welcoming the hon. Lady to the Dispatch Box and congratulating her on her appointment. I know that she is eminently qualified and has many years of experience, not least as a member of the Arts Council of Great Britain. However, I have to be less soft in response to her question, because Mr. Jocelyn Stevens has a distinguished record in the management of the arts. That is beyond doubt. There has been a great deal of misunderstanding about English Heritage's long-term strategy. There is no question of its selling off anything and, of course, there would certainly be no question of its doing any such thing in the case of, for example, Crown property. I very much hope that more rational counsels will prevail in future.
Football Stadiums
3. Mr. Illsley : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if he will relax the requirements for all-seater stadiums for football clubs in the first and second divisions of the Football League and clubs in the premier league.
Mr. Brooke : I stand by the decision of my predecessor that all clubs in the Football Association premier league and those in division one of the Football League will be required to be all-seater by August 1994 in accordance with the recommendations of Lord Justice Taylor's final report on the Hillsborough stadium disaster. Clubs in divisions two and three of the Football League will be allowed to retain some standing accommodation provided it is safe.
Mr. Illsley : I thank the Secretary of State for that reply. Is he aware that some first division clubs are finding difficulties in meeting the Taylor recommendations because of the cost of converting to all-seater stadiums? Will the Secretary of State consider the recommendations of the Select Committee on Home Affairs that clubs with an attendance of, say, under 10,000 should be allowed to retain some standing accommodation and that clubs should be judged on individual attendance, always bearing in mind, of course, the fact that safety is the paramount issue?
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Mr. Brooke : When consultation on that issue took place, there was reasonable agreement on the advice that the cut should be on a divisional rather than an attendance basis. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the Football Licensing Authority, most notably in a recent letter to Southampton, has stated the sort of circumstances at which it would look in considering a request to go beyond the present deadline.
Mr. John Greenway : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the work of the Football Trust has been crucial in helping many soccer grounds to meet the requirements of the Taylor report? Does he recall that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, introduced a 2.5 per cent. reduction in pool betting duty, which has been put to good use? Will the Secretary of State please do all that he can to support the Football Trust in getting that pool betting duty exemption extended?
Mr. Brooke : I suspect that it is just possible that my hon. Friend's question contained some supplementary agenda. I assure him that I shall be supportive of the Football Trust.
Countryside (Recreation)
4. Mr. Bennett : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if he will make a statement about access to the countryside for recreational use, with particular reference to fell running, orienteering and water sports.
Mr. Key : The Government's policy is to promote access to the countryside for recreational use of all kinds, while respecting property rights, conservation interests and the needs of rural development and agriculture.
Mr. Bennett : The Minister will recall that, just before the summer recess, I drew to the then Secretary of State's attention the problem that was being created by North West Water and the Forestry Commission threatening to charge orienteers and fell runners for access to their land. He said that, although he was not a runner, he would look into the matter. Is the Minister aware that, as a result of that and other questions and publicity, it looks as though North West Water and the Forestry Commission are backing off from imposing charges? Will the hon. Gentleman welcome that step and make it clear that he does not believe that sporting organisations should be charged for access, particularly to areas of outstanding natural beauty to which they go for fell running and orienteering?
Mr. Key : Fell walking and orienteering should be encouraged in the countryside. There has been movement, which I am delighted to endorse. However, I understand that the water companies and the Forestry Commission never intended to charge individuals for access to their property. They sought only to ensure that the substantial costs involved when that activity took place were covered where there were formal programmes of training or large events taking place.
Live Music
5. Mr. Bayley : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what is his policy on promoting live music.
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Mr. Key : The Government support the arts through the Arts Council and regional arts boards. Our common aim, for all art forms, is to encourage quality and innovation and to make the arts as widely available as possible. To that end, the Arts Council expects to spend more than £43 million this year on live music, ranging from opera and orchestras to jazz and reggae. The regional boards also fund a good deal of music making at a more local level.
Mr. Bayley : Does the Minister accept that the provision of small venues is particularly important as a seedbed for new musical talent? Is it not an absurd anomaly that section 182 of the Licensing Act 1964 requires a public entertainment licence where more than two live musicians gather at a venue such as a public house, but not when a discotheque is held there or, worse still, when muzak is played on the pub's loudspeakers? Will the Minister consider a change in the law, and will he meet a deputation from the all-party jazz group to discuss how the law can be changed to provide better opportunities for inspiring young musicians to get a live venue?
Mr. Key : I am always prepared to go to great lengths to encourage jazz, which is a particular enthusiasm of mine. Changes in the law on noise are a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, but there are good reasons for having entertainment licences, as I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge. If he would like to acquaint me further with the nature of his problems, I should be happy to see him.
Sir Fergus Mongomery : Was not the first National Music Day a great success? Has my hon. Friend any plans to repeat that event?
Mr. Key : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It was indeed an outstanding success right across the country, with tens of thousands of amateur musicians and professionals taking part in a great national celebration. We are considering whether to repeat the exercise next year and are discussing the details with the organisers, although we have come to no conclusion yet.
Mr. Pendry : Is the Minister aware that besides himself, President- elect Clinton is with it, Nigel Kennedy is swinging towards it and, more importantly, millions of men and women are appreciating it in greater numbers? However, the Arts Council is cutting grants to the regional jazz boards. Grants have been withdrawn from Eastern Jazz and the Scottish Jazz Network. Jazz Central is under review and others could follow. That demonstrates that the Arts Council is ignorant of this kind of music. Therefore, will the Minister knock together the heads of those on the Arts Council to bring about a much more sensible jazz policy?
Mr. Key : I stand by the long-standing tradition of arm's-length management and funding, and I would not wish to interfere in the artistic judgments of the Arts Council. However, as I have discovered, genuine problems arise from time to time--for example, where jazz is played in clubs for profit or where an entry fee is charged--and there may be some scope for discussion there. I acknowledge the basic point that the hon. Gentleman is making--that there is tremendous enthusiasm for jazz, which young people are taking up in greater numbers in
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schools, including my eldest daughter, who is taking up the saxophone. I pay tribute to the teachers who seek to inculcate jazz.BBC
6. Mr. Whittingdale : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage when he expects to publish his proposals for the future of the BBC.
Mr. Brooke : I intend to publish a discussion paper about the future of the BBC in the next few weeks. That will set out a range of questions as a framework for public debate.
Mr. Whittingdale : Will my right hon. Friend confirm that in considering the future funding and structure of the BBC, no options will be excluded? Will he consider particularly whether the BBC should continue to enjoy a monopoly of public sector subsidy and whether it is right that the full range of output of the BBC should continue to be funded by the licence fee payer?
Mr. Brooke : If I answered every one of my hon. Friend's questions, I should be producing an early publication of the discussion document. I can give him the assurance that all the matters that he has raised are being considered during the preparation of the document.
Mr. Mandelson : In view of the complex and challenging future for the BBC, does the Secretary of State think that the present arrangements for the director-generalship of the BBC are sensible or satisfactory? Rather than persist with the rather unhappy situation in which two people, Sir Michael Checkland and Mr. John Birt, are effectively doing the same job, does the right hon. Gentleman think that it would be wise to cut through the knot and allow Mr. Birt to take over at a slightly earlier moment than presently planned?
Mr. Brooke : I understand the hon. Gentleman's question, but the arrangements were set in motion by the governors and the BBC as a specific plan. That is a matter for the BBC rather than for me.
Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith : My right hon. Friend will be aware that I have worked for both systems of television and radio, commercial broadcasting as well as for the BBC. Does he agree that any steps that he takes to consider the future of the BBC should be structured on two important facts--that it is an institution of world renown and that it is one of the greatest patrons of the arts in this country?
Mr. Brooke : I well remember supporting my hon. Friend when he represented another constituency during the days when he was involved in the BBC. I entirely share the view that he has expressed about the BBC.
Mr. Corbett : May I underline the urgency of making the Green Paper public as soon as possible to assist what we all hope will be a widespread debate on the future of the BBC that involves viewers and listeners? Is the Secretary of State aware that we shall expect the document to reaffirm the Government's commitment to the independence of the BBC and its prime role in our broadcasting system? Meanwhile, will the right hon. Gentleman urge the BBC to
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stop its current round of job cutting, which threatens programme-making ability, ahead of any decisions on its role into and beyond the next century?Mr. Brooke : The hon. Gentleman's impatience is a little undue, considering that we are talking about a charter that runs until 1996. It is better that it were done well than done hastily. As for the hon. Gentleman's question about jobs at the BBC, under its present charter internal appointments and day-to-day management are matters for the BBC itself.
Mr. Fabricant : My right hon. Friend will be aware that, on the restructuring of the Independent Broadcasting Authority into the Independent Television Commission and the Radio Authority, the engineering division was privatised and became National Transcommunications. Does my right hon. Friend have similar plans so to privatise BBC Engineering? Is he aware that, because the BBC produces its own programmes, the privatisation of BBC Engineering could well have an effect on its programme-making capacity?
Mr. Brooke : Seductive though the invitations are from my hon. Friends, it would be premature for me to say what will be in the document before we arrive at it.
Collections of Paintings
7. Mrs. Anne Campbell : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what measures he has recently taken to preserve collections of paintings of national importance in Britain.
Mr. Brooke : In addition to the Waverley system of export controls, there are several tax concessions to encourage the retention of pre-eminent works. The Government also provide grants, including that to the national heritage memorial fund, to assist the purchase of items under threat of export.
Mrs. Campbell : What has the right hon. Gentleman done to prevent the sale by Royal Holloway and Bedford new college of the paintings by Gainsborough, Constable and Turner to fund building work? Does he approve of colleges raising money in that way to finance essential building work and repairs?
Mr. Brooke : I fully appreciate the concern about the possible sale of three paintings from the college's picture collection. Although I have not seen them in my present capacity, I saw them previously. The decision whether to sell is one for the college and the Charity Commissioners and it would not be appropriate for Ministers to intervene.
Mr. Cormack : Is my right hon. Friend aware that many owners of major collections of works of art are anxious to keep them together for the benefit of the nation? Does he accept that the national heritage memorial fund should have greater flexibility to acquire such collections for a brief period while deciding where they should ultimately reside?
Mr. Brooke : I am conscious of certain cases that might be in my hon. Friend's mind and I shall consider the matter. However, I am sure that those who have monitored the work of the national heritage memorial fund to date would say that it is working extremely well.
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Mr. Sheldon : Is the Secretary of State aware that a number of national institutions are considering the sale of important works of art to provide funds for normal maintenance work? For example, Edinburgh university is considering the sale of some very important works of art. That widespread and serious problem has come to light recently because of the pressure on maintenance funds. Will the right hon. Gentleman think afresh on the matter, as it is becoming an urgent problem?
Mr. Brooke : The right hon. Gentleman tempts me on to territory that belongs to my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Education and for Scotland. However, I recognise the basic issue raised by the right hon. Gentleman and it should secure the attention of all of us.
Mr. Wolfson : Does my right hon. Friend agree that, often, when historic houses in private ownership come on to the market, that results in the breaking up of art collections? Is not the National Trust concerned that, because of recessionary pressures, there could be a large number of private sales? Is not the best way forward for those houses to remain in private hands, provided they are open to the public? Is my right hon. Friend taking any steps to ensure that that happens?
Mr. Brooke : My hon. Friend has raised two separate questions, one of which relates to the recent annual general meeting of the National Trust --that is, the sale of the contents and of privately owned historic houses. A number of the issues relating to that matter come within the competence of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, so I shall draw my hon. Friend's questions to his attention.
Mr. Skinner : Does the Secretary of State recall that about two years ago, when Lady Thatcher was in power, I raised the question of silver that had disappeared from a National Trust house in Northampton? Apparently, it was found in the possession of the then Prime Minister at No. 10 Downing street. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I asked a number of other questions and discovered that Lady Thatcher had paintings and all sorts of other art collections from museums and art galleries throughout the country? Have they been returned, or did she take them with her?
Mr. Brooke : I am unfamiliar with the precise detail of the hon. Gentleman's point, but I shall inquire into it. However, I am sure that all hon. Members would wish No. 10 Downing street to be an appropriate showpiece for the heritage of our nation.
Mr. Rowe : If, over the years, academic and other institutions have, through their own prudence or that of others, been endowed with works of art which they view as a form of capital assets, will my right hon. Friend take a balanced view of the desire of such institutions--at times when they want to continue doing what they do--to sell them?
Mr. Brooke : I am not absolutely confident that I followed every sub -clause of my hon. Friend's question, but I will read it with great care and if I can give my hon. Friend a specific answer, I shall do so.
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Public Library Service
8. Mr. Raynsford : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if he will make a statement on the state of the public library service.
Mr. Key : The responsibility for providing public library services rests with local library authorities. The best of them offer sound management of resources and a service which is modern, friendly and appropriate to users' needs.
Mr. Raynsford : Does the Minister recognise that there has been a steady decline in the standard of service throughout the country in the past 10 to 15 years? That is evident in reduced book funds and opening hours, and in library closures. Will that not grow worse as financial pressures on local authorities intensify? When will the Minister act to stop the rot so that local authorities can deliver a comprehensive and efficient service, as they are required to do under the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964?
Mr. Key : Public libraries in England added 10.8 million, 11.1 million and 11 million books to their stocks in 1980-81, 1984-85 and 1990- 91 respectively. Those figures include donations and free publications as well as purchases. Actual expenditure on books in those same years was £41 million, £56.8 million and £84.8 million--representing an increase in expenditure in real terms of almost 13 per cent.
Mrs. Angela Knight : My hon. Friend is aware that, despite continuing local protest and an independent review, Derbyshire county council has reopened only three of the 11 libraries that it closed. One that remains shut is the popular library in Breaston, in my constituency. Will my hon. Friend use all the powers at his disposal to ensure that my constituents enjoy the library services for which they consider that they pay in their community charge but do not receive from Derbyshire county council?
Mr. Key : I am well aware of the strong public feeling in Derbyshire about the county council's actions in recent years. I invited a delegation from the library authority to see me only last week. I took into consideration the independent panel's decision and recommendations and I have, as it were, put Derbyshire on probation : I shall not now hold a public inquiry because of the county council's good intentions, but it must hold to them if the council is to respond positively to the needs of the people whom it serves.
Mr. Barnes : Will the Minister ask the Secretary of State for the Environment to reconsider the formula used to calculate standard spending assessments so that Derbyshire and other authorities may have the resources to provide wide-ranging services--including public libraries, which need to be defended and expanded?
Mr. Key : The hon. Gentleman will recall that I know a thing or two about standard spending assessments. He and I have sparred over that issue for years. Derbyshire's standard spending assessment is calculated on exactly the same basis as that of every other local authority. If Derbyshire prioritises needs in a way which upsets the hon. Gentleman, he knows to whom he must speak.
Mr. Brandreth : Does my hon. Friend share my concern that, despite the greatly increased expenditure on public
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libraries that he enumerated, the number of books borrowed in the past decade has fallen some 15 per cent.? Does he have any initiatives to encourage greater use of public libraries?Mr. Kay : Yes, I have many ideas--but so do the professionals who run the library service. I invite my hon. Friend and right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House to acknowledge that libraries are not what they were : no longer are they places where one just goes to read or borrow a book--today libraries serve as resource centres which lend many items other than books and offer on-line computer facilities. Libraries are responding positively to that new demand. They are issuing more books than they have done for some time, and the loaning of sound and video recordings is increasing rapidly.
International Festivals (Cost)
9. Mr. Nigel Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage what steps he is taking to ensure that local authorities that host international festivals have the financial burden of doing so taken into account by the Government.
Mr. Key : It is for individual local authorities to determine the extent of their financial support for arts organisations and events, in the light of local circumstances and competing priorities. All major international arts festivals receive substantial financial support from central Government through the Arts Council and regional arts boards.
Mr. Jones : I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he accept, however, that many local authorities' spending is severely strapped at present? With the recession taking its toll on the box offices, many art providers are in serious financial difficulty, including the Everyman theatre in my constituency of Cheltenham. How does the Minister intend to protect the arts from the double whammy of local authority capping and the recession?
Mr. Key : I shall continue to encourage the large number of festivals which take place in this country. There are currently more than 500, excluding one-day local and community festivals. One answer to the problem is mixed funding. In that connection, I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the enormous success of business sponsorship for the arts, and the success of incentive schemes which have encouraged the funding which has allowed sponsorship levels to rise so dramatically in recent years.
Mr. Hawkins : As my hon. Friend will know, my constituency contains something that is by way of being a permanent international festival--the Blackpool pleasure beach, which is the biggest visitor attraction in Europe apart from the Vatican. May I ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to welcome the beach's enterprise in planning the biggest rollercoaster in the world? I have here a schematic representation, which shows that it is higher than Nelson's column.
Mr. Key : Of course I welcome initiative of that kind. It is the sort of imaginative scheme which will no doubt appeal to the Leader of the Opposition when he considers his European policy.
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I should be delighted to welcome my hon. Friend and any of his hon. Friends from Blackpool. Blackpool is the biggest holiday resort in Europe, and the best of that resort provides an example for many others in this country.Millennium Fund
10. Mr. Cohen : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if he will make a statement about his current plans in connection with the millennium fund.
Mr. Brooke : I shall set out the Government's policy on the millennium fund during the passage of the National Lottery Bill.
Mr. Cohen : How will projects financed by the millennium fund differ from those financed by the national lottery? A good many grandiose projects featured in the Conservative party manifesto ; why should we wait for the millennium fund to be financed by the lottery? Why do the Government not put some money into it now, and start spending it now?
Mr. Brooke : The millennium fund is associated with either the year 2000 or the year 2001--there is a degree of academic argument about that. There is plenty of time for the National Lottery Bill to afford the resources for the millennium fund.
Highcliffe Castle, Dorset
11. Mr. Adley : To ask the Secretary of State for National Heritage if he will make a statement on progress on the works on Highcliffe castle, Dorset.
Mr. Key : The Buildings at Risk Trust has been commissioned by Christchurch borough council to prepare a business plan for the restoration of Highcliffe castle. Holding works have been carried out, with English Heritage grant aid, to protect the damaged structure while its future is being considered.
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