House of Commons Hansard Debates for 28 Oct 1992

Anglo-Israeli Relations

13. Mr. Bell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on Anglo-Israeli relations.

Mr. Douglas Hogg : There have been positive developments recently since the election of the new Israeli Government in June. We have had numerous contacts with them at all levels to encourage Israel to make the best of new opportunities in the peace programme. The Israeli Foreign Minister called on the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary in London in September. The Israeli Prime Minister will meet the Prime Minister in London in December. The Prime Minister has expressed his hope to visit Israel next year.

Mr. Bell : I am grateful to the Minister of State for that response. Is it not refreshing to be dealing with a Labour Government in Israel who seem to understand the peace process and are committed to it? Is it not a fact that a time of crisis is a time of opportunity? There is still a crisis in northern Israel and southern Lebanon and an opportunity exists--a precious opportunity, as the Foreign Secretary said--and the peace process must continue. Will the Minister of State and Her Majesty's Government use Mr. Rabin's visit in December to ensure a fruitful and positive outcome of the peace talks?

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Mr. Hogg : We very much welcome the impetus that Prime Minister Rabin has given to the peace process. It is enormously valuable and it creates a good opportunity to make an agreement with all the parties. We will certainly do whatever we can to reinforce that process--recognising, as we do, the need to provide security for Israel and the need to comply with United Nations resolutions 242 and 338.

Mr. Batiste : My right hon. and learned Friend said a few moments ago that a proper response to the flexibility being shown by the new Israeli Government would be for the Arab Governments to end the boycott. What action is he taking to promote that process in discussions with Arab Governments?

Mr. Hogg : My hon. Friend is right. The movement on settlements has been dramatic and important. It removes a barrier to the peace process. It is important that the Arab Governments respond to what has been done. We are impressing on them, both bilaterally and with the Community, the need for them to tackle the question of the Arab trade boycott. We think that it is wrong and should be removed, and we are saying so.

Mr. Janner : What response has the Minister received to his representations to Arab Governments regarding the Arab boycott?

Mr. Hogg : The response is encouraging, but it has not yet gone far enough. We shall therefore go on pressing the Arab states on the need to get rid of the boycott, which we believe to be wrong and an obstacle to the creation of confidence which is essential if there is to be a total agreement.

Botswana

16. Mrs. Gorman : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's relations with Botswana.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : Botswana's democratic traditions and record of sound economic management are widely admired. We enjoy excellent relations with Botswana and look forward to continuing our close co-operation in the future.

Mrs. Gorman : I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. I am sure that he will be pleased to know that I have just come back from an excellent lunch with the Botswana high commissioner, who is an admirable woman high commissioner. She discussed with me over lunch the plight of Botswana's farmers in respect of elephant stocks. She put it to me that CITES, the convention on trade in endangered species, has prevented Botswana from marketing the tusks and hides of the elephants and is leading to severe problems in her country. She has asked me to ask the Minister whether the Government will reconsider our attitude to the CITES provisions which stop countries such as Botswana farming their elephants and creating a market in the by-products.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : My hon. Friend has found a most public way of thanking the Botswana high commissioner for a delightful lunch. Great though our respect for the

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Botswana Government is, we still support the CITES trade ban on ivory, but we recognise that there is a growing elephant population in Botswana.

Subsidiarity

17. Mr. Gill : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what definition of the word subsidiarity he uses in the context of the Maastricht treaty.

Mr. Hurd : The treaty states that the Community should take action "only if and in so far as the objectives of the proposed action cannot be sufficiently achieved by member states".

Nor should any action by the Community go beyond what is necessary to achieve the objectives of the treaty.

Mr. Gill : I am grateful for that answer. I first asked for a definition of subsidiarity in this House in April 1990 when it was just a mote in someone's eye. Why two and a half years later, has that question still not been satisfactorily answered? How can the Government come back to the House with the Maastricht treaty, which relies so much on the definition of subsidiarity, when the definition is still unclear? Is it not great arrogance on the part of the Government to bring back the treaty before that matter has been finally resolved?

Mr. Hurd : My hon. Friend may well be a pioneer in asking that question--if so, I congratulate him--but he must have had a similar answer over and over again. The answer is the one in the treaty and I answered detailed questions about it the other day in the Scrutiny Committee. I am not sure whether I satisfied all hon. Members--[ Hon. Members :-- "No."] but we had a good discussion on the matter. What is new since my hon. Friend started to ask the question--indeed, new in the past few months --is that the Commission, the Council of Ministers and, I hope, the European Parliament, to which I spoke yesterday, are all setting in hand measures to apply the principle from now on. If my hon. Friend looks at the way in which Community legislation is now being prepared by the Commission, at the sharp drop in the number of proposals, at the proposals made by the President of the Commission to change the way in which the Commission looks at these matters, and at the Government's decision to put an explanation of subsidiarity into every explanatory memorandum that we send to the Scrutiny Committee, he will see that the principle is beginning to work. it will be a long time before I can convince him--I readily understand that--but it is beginning to happen.

Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones : The Foreign Secretary will be aware that to the Government subsidiarity means that decisions are taken at two levels-- at European level and at the level of this Parliament--whereas to the Germans it means decision taking at three levels--European level, German level and La"nder level. Whose definition is the right one?

Mr. Hurd : That point was discussed and cleared up at Birmingham. The Birmingham declaration clearly states that the arrangements within each member state are for each member state to decide.

Mr. Lester : Would it not be helpful to my right hon. Friend if the many colleagues who ask questions of great complexity about subsidiarity, the various regulations and

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so on would simply say what they genuinely are--anti-European--and that whatever answer they get they will remain so?

Mr. Hurd : There are different concepts of Europe. My worry about the people who are basically opposed to our membership of the Community is that they close their eyes to what is actually happening and to the way in which the Community is beginning, albeit slowly, to move in the direction that we have advocated. They close their eyes to that because of their conviction that everything coming out of the Community has to be treated in a sour and hostile way.

East Timor

19. Mr. Battle : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the Indonesian Government on the sentencing practices following the massacre in Santa Cruz, East Timor.

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : Together with our European Community partners we made a de marche to the Indonesian Government in June.

Representations were made following the meeting of aid donors in July and subsequently by Ministers, most recently during the visit of my right hon. Friend the Minister of State to Jakarta.

Mr. Battle : I welcome the Minister's response and the representations, but would it not be better for the Government to go further and stop their current practice of providing scholarships to train military personnel from Indonesia in British military colleges and also to close the defence sales organisation that has just opened in Indonesia?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : I would have hoped that the hon. Gentleman would recognise that the best way to influence human rights policy in Indonesia is by staying in there and maintaining our trade, and by discussing with them the matters on which we disagree, especially bearing in mind the fact that in the first six months of this year we had £170 million of trade with Indonesia, which is double last year's amount.

Mr. Anthony Coombs : Does my hon. Friend agree that since the massacre in Dili in November 1991 the reaction of the Indonesian Government in seeking to bring the perpetrators to justice has been totally inadequate? Does he also agree that if the East Timor problem is to be resolved in the long term it is crucial that East Timor's representatives are given the opportunity to sit at the negotiating table with representatives of Indonesia and third parties, such as Britain as the president of the Community, and the Portuguese, so as to resolve their differences?

Mr. Lennox-Boyd : We made clear our abhorrence of the East Timor massacre. There was an inquiry by Dr. Wako, the representative of the United Nations Secretary-General, and an inquiry by the Indonesian Government followed by prosecutions and sentences of members of the security forces. That was unprecedented in Indonesia. My hon. Friend asks about the issue between Portugal and Indonesia over East Timor. We believe that

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the way forward is discussion between those two countries under the auspices of the United Nations Secretary-General.

Middle East

22. Mr. David Atkinson : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the middle east peace process.

Mr. Douglas Hogg : The seventh round of bilateral negotiations between Israel and her Arab neighbours started in Washington on 21 October. The atmosphere at the talks has improved considerably since the Israeli elections. Some progress was made in the sixth round, especially in negotiations between the Israelis and the

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Syrians and Palestinians. We have urged all parties to demonstrate courage and flexibility in their efforts to reach a comprehensive, just and lasting solution to the dispute.

Mr. Atkinson : Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm that the Government, with our Council of Europe colleagues, stand ready generously to aid the permanent resettlement of the Palestinian refugees living in the appalling refugee camps in which they have been for so long, as well as to aid the Russian and Soviet immigrants into Israel proper once a peace agreement between Israel and its Arab neighbours has been signed?

Mr. Hogg : My hon. Friend is right when he says, in effect, that the conclusion of the wider peace settlement is a necessary pre-condition to the tackling of the other issues, both economic and those involving weapons, which must be resolved but cannot be resolved until the peace process is complete.

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