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Mr. Lang : One of the reasons why the consultation paper has been so widely welcomed is that it lays out alternatives, options and illustrative choices in an entirely neutral and fair-minded way. That is our purpose : to consult the people of Scotland and to obtain their views so that we can make a decision.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Wheatley commission. He forgets that the decisions on boundaries made in the last local government reform were made by Parliament--and it is Parliament which will make the decision this time.

Mr. Kirkwood : Does the Secretary of State accept that one of the reasons why such interest has been expressed in his consultation document is the fact that many jobs may be at risk? The Government's irrelevant project has led to a hiatus in the morale of local government professional staff.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us something about the cost-benefit analysis that accompanies the document? I know that the Touche Ross consultants have produced their own figures, but those figures are directly contradicted by figures produced by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, which says that although the costs are certainly quantifiable, the savings are not. COSLA believes that the cost will be £200 million.

The assumptions made by Touche Ross are not the Government's assumptions. When will we see the Government's own assessment of what the reform will cost?

Mr. Lang : Touche Ross produced a paper containing cost figures based on various assumptions, and COSLA contributed to the work done by Touche Ross in drawing

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up the figures. We shall, however, be keen to hear any further output from either COSLA or local authorities on those cost assumptions.

The hon. Gentleman asked me what the assumptions were. The broad expectation from the Touche Ross report is that the reconstruction of local authorities, putting them on a single-tier basis, will result in some job losses and some reductions in bureaucracy, involving fewer than 3 per cent. of the total number of people employed in local government. Those reductions, however, will lead to savings of up to £200 million a year. That is a dramatic contrast with the figures given by the hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke), who, on successive days, offered us cost estimates of £400 million, £500 million and even £600 million.

Mr. Raymond S. Robertson : In the consultation document, the city of Aberdeen is given single-tier status in three of the four possible options. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the weight of evidence is unquestionably in favour of Aberdeen's once again having a single-tier authority and that, with the support of the ruling Labour group on Aberdeen city council, we shall have that?

Mr. Lang : I entirely understand my hon. Friend's enthusiasm for such an outcome, and I have no doubt that his view will be widely held in Aberdeen. I look forward to receiving contributions to the consultation process from the people of Aberdeen ; I myself see a strong case for an all -purpose, single-tier authority based on Aberdeen.

Mr. Welsh : As the Government admit the failure of the previous root and branch reform of local government structure only 18 years ago and produced the poll tax, which led to the greatest shambles ever seen in local government finance, how can anybody be confident that the Government will get it right this time? Will the Secretary of State listen to members of his own party and to the vast majority of Scottish people who want water services to remain under the control of local authorities? Will he ensure that the same £700 million green dowry as he supported for England is made available to Scottish local authorities to allow them to improve water services in Scotland?

Mr. Lang : I have already dealt with the water question. The changes that resulted from Lord Wheatley's commission substantially improved the structure of local government in Scotland. That is beyond doubt. However, Lord Wheatley said that we cannot afford to allow the structure of local government to remain static. That is my view also. Changed circumstances and changed needs require a changed structure. The structure that we are putting before the people of Scotland in our consultation paper will improve service delivery and accountability, reduce costs and strengthen local democracy.

Mr. Maxton : How can the Secretary of State describe this as a genuine consultation process when his junior Minister in charge of local government, the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart), is publicly campaigning for the retention of Eastwood? In other words, he is campaigning for the 51-unit structure. He has also made it clear that Eastwood will go into Glasgow only over his dead body, which means that he rejects the 15-unit structure. Is it not time that the Secretary of State told his junior Minister either to shut up or to get out of the Government?

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Mr. Lang : I do not believe that Members of Parliament should be exempt from taking part in the consultation process. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will let me have his views on how he believes the interests of his constituents would be best served. I hope that all hon. Members will give me their views on how their constituents' interests would be best served. If we are able to achieve such a consultation response, plus all the input that we shall get in response to the tens of thousands of leaflets and booklets that have already been sent out, we shall have a worthwhile consultation process and end up with a better structure of local government.

Higher Education

9. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many Scottish students are entering higher education in the current year.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton) : In 1990-91, the latest year for which final figures are available, 26,690 full-time and 23,183 part-time Scottish students entered undergraduate higher education courses in the United Kingdom. The figures show a rise of 30 per cent. in full-time entrants since 1980-81. Estimates for 1991-92 indicate continued growth.

Mr. Marshall : That is a very welcome answer. Does my hon. Friend remember the forecast made when the student loan scheme was introduced-- that it would discourage students from going to university? Does his statement not suggest that those who made that forecast were bad forecasters as well as being misguided educationists?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : My hon. Friend is correct. About 260, 000 loans have been made, and 37 per cent. of eligible students took out loans in 1991-92. The take-up rate is expected to rise, which we believe is welcome and will help to increase access to higher education.

Mr. Connarty : Does the Secretary of State not realise from his correspondence with me that many students who have obtained places on postgraduate courses have been denied grants because the Government have not allocated an adequate amount of money for that purpose? Will he do something about it?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : Our present package of maintenance grants, loans and free tuition remains one of the most generous in the western world. If we were greatly to increase the resources allocated to grants, we should reduce access to higher education. I believe that to increase and widen access to higher education is generally welcomed throughout Britain. In Scotland, one in four school leavers achieves the qualifications to go on to higher education. Ten years ago it was one in six. Before many years have passed it will be one in three. We want to encourage that process and make certain that it becomes a reality.

Mr. McFall : Does not the educational prosperity of these 50,000 students depend on quality staff, and is not it time to think again when a moderate person such as Sir William Kerr Fraser, principal of Glasgow university and a distinguished former Permanent Secretary at the Scottish Office, says that the Government's cynical action in

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stopping the university pay deal will do severe damage to academic motivation and morale? Does the Minister agree with Sir William and his fellow Scottish principals that a system that has shown a 30 per cent. decline in university salaries--related to average earnings--in the past 12 years will undoubtedly lead to a third-rate higher education system? Do not the student community and lecturers deserve better, or are the university lecturers and miners being treated equally? Both are being contemptuously trampled on by this disreputable Government.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I congratulate the hon. Member on his elevation to the Front Bench. We believe that pay levels should be sufficient to recruit, retain and motivate staff of the required quality. There is no evidence of general recruitment and retention difficulties.

European Regional Development Fund

11. Mr. Knox : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the total value of grants that Scotland has received from the European regional development fund since its inception.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Sir Hector Monro) : Since the inception of the European regional development fund in 1975, Scotland has benefited from awards totalling more than £1 billion.

Mr. Knox : Will my hon. Friend say how Scotland has fared under the European structural fund, and how it compares with other European Community countries?

Sir Hector Monro : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We have an excellent record on not only the European regional development fund but the structural fund. Since 1979, nearly £1.5 billion has been allocated, which compares favourably with our European partners.

Dr. Reid : However much money Scotland receives from Europe, it is as nothing compared with the industrial devastation that has been wrought by the Government. Why should we expect the Europeans constantly to bail out a Government who betrayed Scottish steel workers, Scottish miners, their commitment to stay in the ERM, their promise not to devalue and their promise of economic recovery? The Government should be prepared to fight for Scotland and Britain first rather than depending on others to do it for them.

Sir Hector Monro : The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong if he thinks that nobody is fighting to help in Lanarkshire. The Lanarkshire development agency, Industry Scotland and everybody else is working to find the best possible solution to bring work back to Lanarkshire. He is wrong to criticise what we are hoping to achieve.

Mr. Maclennan : Does the Minister accept that if the Government's support for increased expenditure from the regional development fund to the highlands and islands is to prosper the Government will have to support larger budgetary allocations to regional development throughout the Community, in accordance with the views of the newly reappointed Commissioner, Mr. Bruce Millan? Is he prepared to accept increased structural expenditure within the European Community in Scotland's interests?

Sir Hector Monro : It is early days to give a decision. We are fully alive to the needs of the highlands and islands

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area and its campaign for objective-one status. I cannot predict the outcome of the forthcoming negotiations, but the Government will continue to ensure that the needs of the highlands and islands are kept to the fore.

Local Government Finance

13. Mr. McMaster : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he next plans to meet representatives of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to discuss local authority funding.

Mr. Allan Stewart : My right hon. Friend and I met the convention on 5 October as part of the normal consultation on local government finance matters. I expect to have further meetings in due course.

Mr. McMaster : Given the appalling state of Scotland's economy, where the only growth industries are crime, unemployment and bad housing, will the Minister tell us what more the Secretary of State has surrendered in his secret talks with the Treasury? Is it true that the Secretary of State had not only meekly surrendered to massive public expenditure cuts without so much as a whimper but has nodded through the abandonment and abolition of the banded formula, which will deal a double body blow to Scotland? The Minister has been asked the question before : will he answer it today? When will the Secretary of State stop being the Cabinet's man in Scotland and start being Scotland's man in the Cabinet?

Mr. Stewart : First, naturally, I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his elevation to the position of Scottish Whip. He had an excellent reputation for keeping order when he was leader of Renfrew district council, although I believe that his new task will be somewhat more challenging. Nevertheless, the whole House will wish him well.

Secondly, the hon. Gentleman is talking absolute nonsense, with his allegations about my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. If he is so worried about local government finance and its effects on the people of Scotland, I suggest that he and his party ask some Labour authorities how, if they have all those financial difficulties, they managed to give huge increases in salary to top officials across Scotland?

Labour Statistics

15. Mr. Devlin : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the latest unemployment rate in Lothian.

Mr. Allan Stewart : The number of claimants in Lothian region in September 1992 was 34,173. The workforce-based unemployment rate was 8.4 per cent.

Mr. Devlin : Given that the unemployment rate in Lothian region is about half that in Teesside, where I come from, and given that both areas have undergone painful restructuring in recent years, I wonder what my hon. Friend can tell us about the employment growth in Lothian region, and what lessons may be drawn for the benefit of other parts of the country.

Mr. Stewart : My hon. Friend, who defends the interests of his constituents with immense vigour, is absolutely right to emphasise the fact that, relatively, Lothian region, among other parts of Scotland, has survived the recession extremely well. The specific answer that I would give to my

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hon. Friend is, first, that in recent years Lothian region has had the advantage of the substantial increase in service employment associated with the financial centre in Edinburgh and, secondly, among other things, that Livingston has been successful in attracting inward investment to the region.

Mr. Chisholm : Does the Minister realise that in five wards in my constituency within the Lothian region, male unemployment is officially between 21 and 23 per cent ? Female unemployment would be as high, if it were properly calculated. Does he realise that the official unemployment figure is 4,900, and that if it were calculated in the same way as in 1979 the figure would be 6,900 ?

Finally, when will the Minister realise that his insistence on market forces and reducing public expenditure, and on prioritising inflation, is a way of increasing rather than reducing unemployment ?

Mr. Stewart : Of course, I recognise that there are problems in particular parts of the Lothian region, including parts of the hon. Gentleman's constituency, but I must point out to him that Lothian and Edinburgh Enterprise has a current budget of £43 million. That represents a considerable commitment of taxpayers' money by the Government. The number of unemployed people in Lothian fell dramatically--by about 50 per cent.--between January 1987 and June 1990. Total employment has been increasing, so I urge the hon. Gentleman, in the interests of his constituents in Leith, to present publicly a more balanced picture.

Fish Farming

16. Mr. Ian Bruce : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on his Department's role in expanding fish farming.

Sir Hector Monro rose-- [Interruption.]

Sir Hector Monro : That sounds like a pre-run of Ibrox. The Scottish Office provides financial assistance and a regulatory framework for the development of fish farming in Scotland. I welcome the important contribution that salmon farming in particular makes to the economy of some parts of rural Scotland.

Mr. Bruce : I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Can he tell the House what effect removing minimum import prices has had on fish farming in recent times?

Sir Hector Monro : Since May, when I did not review the minimum import price, because the reasons for doing that in relation to Norway no longer existed, the price has firmed very well. The price of small salmon is 50 per cent. up over the price in May and the price for large salmon is up by about 60 per cent. I hope that that trend continues towards Christmas.

Mr. Macdonald : Is the Minister aware that people in the fish farming industry are angry and disappointed at his failure to support their proposal for a producers' organisation? Given the importance of this industry for the Scottish economy and the west coast, will the Minister change his mind and look again at the proposal for a producers' organisation which the industry believes is vital to its long-term future?

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Sir Hector Monro : I agree with the hon. Gentleman that fish farming is most important. I was glad to visit a fish farm in the Western Isles only a few weeks ago. The Government will continue to give all the help that we can and we look forward to a steady increase in production, which has been remarkable over the past 10 years.

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