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Mr. Peter Snape (West Bromwich, East) : As the Minister has just explained, the Government and the Opposition do not officially take a position on legislation such as this. I have listened to the debate on the King's Cross Railways (No. 2) Bill and I have listened to the debates on earlier King's Cross Railways Bills. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith) on his detailed knowledge and constructive arguments against the proposal. I cannot really congratulate him on his brevity, because I am sure that irony is not permitted under the rules of the House. However, my hon. Friend made some detailed objections on behalf of the people he represents, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn).
The long technical summary provided by British Rail points out that the two concrete batching plants--
Mr. Michael Brown rose --
Mr. Snape : I will refer to the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) in a moment, because I want to break the habit of a lifetime and comment on a speech before I have heard it. If the hon. Gentleman will contain himself for a moment, I will get round to him.
The non-technical summary refers to the two concrete batching plants to be displaced by the King's Cross Railways Bill works. That appears to me to provide some justification for the label "King's Cross Railways (No. 2) Bill" to be attached to the measure, but I do not suppose that I will convince either of my hon. Friends that such is the case.
I was interested to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury point out an alternative site for the batching plant south of the river. There was one advantage and one disadvantage to that alternative. The advantage from my hon. Friend's point of view is that the site at New Cross was not in his constituency. The disadvantage is that siting the concrete batching plant south of the river would generate even more heavy goods vehicle movements in the City of London and around this building, too. I do not say that our environment is more worthy of protection than that of my hon. Friends' constituents, but if we are to fulfil our party's objective of
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ensuring that as much traffic as possible, particularly heavy freight traffic, is carried by rail, we must accept that meeting that objective is likely to cause some dislocation to the lives of many of our constituents.The argument about the dislocation to lives caused by railway marshalling yards and railway facilities is not unfamiliar. I remind my hon. Friends that bordering my constituency, a seat that is slightly more marginal than those of my two hon. Friends, is the Bescot marshalling yard. Proposals to expand the railway facilities there meet considerable local opposition. It might underline my hon. Friends' view of my foolhardiness when I say that I have always supported such proposals because I believe that our party's objective of moving traffic from road to rail should not only be shared in someone else's constituency but adopted in our own constituencies. Although I appreciate my hon. Friends' concern on behalf of their constituents, some of us who represent constituencies in the midlands and in the north of England would be glad of the opportunity to complain about the noise from industrial premises. Industrial premises in our constituencies are all too often deserted and derelict. The fact that the placing of industrial premises in constituencies such as Islington, South and Finsbury causes some local concern, which is rightly reflected in my hon. Friends' contributions, should not alter the fact that some of us would welcome facing the sort of problems about which my hon. Friends have complained.
I now refer, before he has even opened his mouth to make it, to the speech of the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes. The hon. Gentleman has the Adjournment debate tonight. [Interruption.] If he has not noticed, I am sure that he will have it drawn to his attention. I promise not to stay for it, if that is any consolation. However, the hon. Gentleman has the Adjournment debate on the InterCity service to and from Cleethorpes. I understand his natural concern that British Rail should see fit to withdraw the one through train a day to that part of the world.
We faced a similar problem with InterCity services from Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury. The hon. Gentleman will be aware, because he takes an interest in such matters countrywide, that the InterCity service from Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury has been cut because BR says, as it says about the Cleethorpes service, that it does not pay and that InterCity is charged with running a profitable service. In the words of the former chairman of British Rail, Sir Bob Reid mark I, "Our job is to run a service which is profitable, not one that is desirable." The hon. Gentleman does not share that view in respect of his own constituency and regional interest. I notice that BR has said that the objectives that were set by the Secretary of State for InterCity services in the United Kingdom have been considerably tightened of late. In 1988, the objective was to achieve a 2.7 per cent. rate of return on assets. InterCity achieved a 1.3 per cent. rate of return in 1988-89--a profit of £26 million. In 1992-93, the objective is 4.75 per cent. rate of return--a profit of £95 million-- despite the recession. I look forward to seeing the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes participate in all rail debates in future attacking his own Secretary of State, refusing to support his Government and giving the Government Whip nightmares. I hope that he will pass up any opportunity of
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promotion to attack the objectives that his Government have set, which have a severe impact on the InterCity service to his constituency.The hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes cannot have it both ways. Either he supports the tightening of the financial belt on InterCity, and in doing so accepts that on any measure of profitability the one through-train to Cleethorpes, desirable as it might be, is a non-starter
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. It may or may not be desirable, but that is for the Adjournment debate. Willthe hon. Gentleman return to the King's Cross Railways (No. 2) Bill?
Mr. Snape : I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have said enough, and I am grateful to you for your guidance and for your kindness in allowing me to say what I have said already. Now that the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes knows what is in order and what is not, I know that he will be careful to avoid falling foul of your justified strictures.
I shall vote for the Bill, even though I appreciate the difficulty that it causes some of my hon. Friends. I believe that the objectives inherent in the Bill are ones that Opposition Members should support.
9.36 pm
Mr. John Heppell (Nottingham, East) : When I was elected to Parliament, I thought that I would get away from planning matters, and I breathed a sigh of relief. But I have been thrown back among planning matters again. However, there is a great difference. I could have started off like the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) by expressing my disappointment that British Rail's proposals do not contain a stop for Nottingham to provide a through route via King's Cross to the channel tunnel. I am disappointed about that because I recognise that the channel tunnel will bring extra prosperity to Britain and that the prosperity will follow the lines of communication. The prosperity will come to where the railway runs, so I am disappointed that Nottingham is not part of that line. If the Bill fails, Nottingham will certainly never have a link with the channel tunnel. If the Bill is passed, there is a possibility that Nottingham will have that link. I believe that if the No. 2 Bill fails, the first Bill will fail. Nothing that my hon. Friends the Members for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) or for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith) have said persuades me otherwise.
My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury says that 95 per cent. of the Bill has nothing to do with the original King's Cross Railways Bill. I accept that. My problem is : what about the 5 per cent. that has something to do with the original Bill? If 5, 4, 3, 2 or 1 per cent. is necessary for the Bill to be passed, I have a duty to support the No. 2 Bill.
I understand the fears of my hon. Friends the Members for Islington, North and for Islington, South and Finsbury. They made a valiant attempt to defend their constituents. They somewhat gilded the lilly. They used some ingenious arguments. If I had more time--I recognise the pressure of time, Mr. Deputy Speaker--I could pick apart their arguments. There was an element of "not in my backyard" in their arguments, but I recognise
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that there are genuine fears among their constituents. My hon. Friends should express those fears. They have every right to do so. I represent Nottingham. The area that I represent, Nottingham, East, has some of the worst unemployment figures and some of the worst bankruptcy rates in the country. One of my wards has 40 per cent. Overall unemployment and male unemployment is much higher. I recognise the unemployment problems faced by the hon. Member for Islington, North, but I cannot return to Nottingham, East and tell people that I have thrown away a chance to give them extra prosperity because of what is happening in Islington.If I vote against the Bill and it falls, the King's Cross Railways Bill will fall, and then we shall effectively strengthen the north-south divide. In Nottingham, we would like a share of channel tunnel prosperity. Why should that stop at London and the south-east? My views will be those expressed by the majority of hon. Members in the north and in the midlands.
9.40 pm
Mr. John Gunnell (Morley and Leeds, South) : Some of my comments will be similar to those made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Heppell). I listened with considerable interest to my hon. Friends the Members for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn) and for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith), who put up a spirited defence of what they think of as their constituents' interests. I was interested to find that my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury participated in the planning process, at the end of which the planning inspector arrived at a conclusion. Had he come to a different conclusion, I imagine that the Bill before us would have been different.
My hon. Friend drew attention to the fact that for several years I have commented, outside the House, on the channel tunnel and direct links between it and the north of England. Those links depend critically on a King's Cross terminal. Therefore, in the past eight years--not merely during the four years that the matter has been before the House--I have been active in trying to ensure that those links are in place and have supported the King's Cross project. I accept that my interest is in one sense strategic. I am interested in the strategic issues through which we may ensure that the channel tunnel serves the nation and not merely the south-east, and that it provides connections between the single European market and the northern industrial regions.
While my hon. Friends who represent Islington have to consider the needs of the people there, and especially of those people near the site where the concrete plant is to be relocated, I have campaigned on behalf of the northern region, and have been dealing with the needs of 17 million people and with the economy that affects them. I must set that and its 5 per cent. of the Bill against the 95 per cent. of the Bill that my hon. Friends who represent Islington are talking about.
Mr. Chris Smith : I have followed what my hon. Friend has said and also the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, East (Mr. Heppell). Their arguments depend entirely on a presumption that, if the access points included within the Bill for the main King's Cross site are not given the go-ahead, the site, the project
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and thereby the link to Nottingham, Leeds and the north cannot proceed. That is an incorrect assumption. Access points in the King's Cross Railways Bill provide perfectly well for access to the site. This Bill is an attempt to improve access and is not essential for the rest of the project to go ahead.Mr. Gunnell : I am also worried about the time scale involved in the realisation of the King's Cross project. Improved access points appear to me to affect the time scale. One of my concerns has been the way in which the timing of the project has slipped back further and further. Therefore, there is no value in delaying the Second Reading.
The objections raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Islington, South and Finsbury and for Islington, North should be discussed. But they were considered by the planning inquiry and conclusions were reached. The best place for such arguments to be considered here is in Committee, when the 16 petitions that have been received can be examined in detail. The residents who live near to the plant, who submitted those petitions, would then be able to express their anxieties to hon. Members. There is no reason for further delay, because the north needs the transport links to be in place as soon as possible after the tunnel is completed.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) raised a different objection. He was dissatisfied with British Rail's plans for the use of the line and its provision of service to the tunnel. He will know that I am equally dissatisfied with the proposals that British Rail has produced after many years of lobbying. British Rail's planned services are not adequate for any of the northern regions, and in particular Yorkshire and Humberside. It will provide no service at all to west Yorkshire. I agree with my hon. Friend that the proposed links are highly unsatisfactory, but that does not mean that we should stop the Bill's progress at this point.
I shall continue to argue with British Rail about the development of the line and the provision of the correct rolling stock. But we will not even need that rolling stock if the right links are not in place.
Mr. Cryer : Does my hon. Friend agree that if we do not argue but accept everything that British Rail proposes, it will run right over us without giving us any concessions at all? In the negotiations, it is important that we hold some cards on our side.
Mr. Gunnell : I have talked to British Rail, to Bob Reid version one and Bob Reid version two, and a whole host of people about the King's Cross development. We must resist British Rail's attempts to put a block on the provision of services to the north. However, there is a difference between arguing for greater investment by British Rail and taking steps which will lead to unreasonable delays in the King's Cross project. The project has enough problems already. British Rail's future is surrounded by uncertainty. This project will cost at least £1.4 billion, and if that sum must be obtained primarily from the private sector, which is the present view, I worry whether the project will obtain the money and be completed in the time scale that the north of England needs. The project should be completed. Money should be provided from public funds because it is a national responsibility to ensure that national links are in place for the channel tunnel.
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If we are to allow the project to have the maximum chance to succeed, we must ensure that the Bill goes to Committee stage so that hon. Member's objections can be considered in detail.9.48 pm
Mr. Michael Brown (Brigg and Cleethorpes) : I take issue with the hon. Member for Morley and Leeds, South (Mr. Gunnell). We have both represented our local authority in one guise or another. Before he entered the House, the hon. Gentleman was a distinguished member of the local authority and, subsequently, an active director of the Yorkshire and Humberside development association. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman may wonder why I take issue with him, because he may argue that, to some extent, our interests are the same.
I have long been uneasy about the King's Cross development. When the original Bill came before the House in 1988, I had misgivings. The hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Smith) took issue with me on whether the project should be dealt with by public inquiry or private Bill. I make no apology for saying that I accept that the private Bill procedure is the correct way for such a project to come before the House. In the 13 years in which I have been a Member of this House, I have taken a close interest in private Bills. I have opposed and promoted them, and I must therefore take the rough with the smooth. Private Bills give hon. Members an opportunity to probe organisations like British Rail much more closely.
The hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury is right to discuss his grave misgivings about the project. Hon. Members may ask what someone representing Brigg and Cleethorpes knows about King's Cross. For the past 22 years, since I first went to York university, I have been travelling from King's Cross to York, Scunthorpe or Cleethorpes by rail and I have spent more hours than I care to remember standing on the platforms at King's Cross waiting for a train to one of those three destinations. I hope that I shall have many opportunities in the future to stand on that platform waiting for the 7.50 train. Although the train is often delayed and I am stuck there for an hour or two, it will eventually get me all the way to Cleethorpes. I know a lot about King's Cross because the train is often delayed for more than an hour and I take the opportunity to go round the area.
I am particularly familiar with the Golden Lion public house. My hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Waller) said that he thinks that British Rail will be able to accommodate the problems with regard to that pub, but I am not sure that that is true. The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape) quoted only from the non-technical report, whereas those of us who take a close interest in the Bill have referred throughout the debate to the technical report. In that report, British Rail makes it clear that the public house will have to be destroyed. I am delighted to hear from my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley that that has now been changed. However, whether British Rail comes to the House with private legislation or whether it makes assurances in correspondence, it says one thing one year and then stands on its head and swears blindly that it did not mean it. I shall not share my correspondence with the House now but I shall do so in a couple of hours. When I told British Rail in 1988 that I would oppose the original King's Cross
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Bill unless I received certain assurances, I was given those assurances on paper. But today, British Rail will say that the position has changed. Its assurances are not worth the paper on which they are written--Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West) : They are like party political manifestos.
Mr. Brown : That comment is rather near the mark.
British Rail will say anything to get us into the Division Lobbies on private legislation. I have correspondence between myself and British Rail dating back to 1988, when the original King's Cross Bill was introduced, seeking assurances before I was prepared to support the Bill. Today, those assurances are not worth the paper on which they were written.
When my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley assures hon. Members that they need not worry about the Golden Lion public house because, although the technical report says that it will be destroyed, that is not so, I prefer to rely on the judgment of one of the petitioners, the Camden Civic Society, which has existed for a long time. It is described in its petition as a local amenity society, founded in 1963, and is affiliated to the Civic Trust. It has been dealing with British Rail over King's Cross for a long time--more than 28 years. It has met regularly with British Rail and played an active part in monitoring planning developments in the district around King's Cross, particularly in heightening public awareness of its buildings and environment.
In 1988, when the original King's Cross Bill was introduced, Camden Civic Society took the initiative, with officers of the London borough of Camden, in establishing a conservation area advisory committee for the King's Cross district, on the lines set out in the Department of the Environment circular produced in August 1987. The organisation has met regularly since then and has played an important role in discussions on the district's future. It had no hesitation in saying that the Bill would require the destruction of the Golden Lion public house. It says that the pub is a distinctive building. I have frequently visited the pub when I have been at a loose end waiting for a British Rail train to take me to Cleethorpes, and I agree. I believe that it is also an attractive building in the context of an inner-city environment. It is part of the character of what Camden Civic Society describes as the King's Cross conservation area.
The hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury mentioned another building, but I think that he could have done it more justice. The Bill's proposals would involve demolishing the St. Pancras ironworks building-- situated at 36-40 York way--which could otherwise be preserved. The hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury is right to say that there is an alternative.
I have been brought up on the lexicon that there is no alternative with regard to other political matters, but when it came to the issue of nuclear waste in Brigg and Cleethorpes, I proved that there was an alternative. The hon. Gentleman can take heart from the fact that I was told that there was no alternative but to have nuclear waste in my constituency as there was nowhere else for it to go. But miraculously, just one week before the 1987 general election was called, the proposal disappeared.
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It is absolutely vital that hon. Members should be wary when an organisation such as British Rail seeks powers and claims that the project at King's Cross will fall unless there is a concrete batching plant at Lough road. They must be cautious if British Rail says that the King's Cross project for links between the north of England and Nottingham, through to the channel tunnel, will fall apart if the three temporary access points proposed in the Bill are not granted. Hon. Members are being made fools of, and taken for a ride by British Rail, if they believe that in two or three years time when they have a constituency problem involving British Rail, they can remind it that they supported it over a controversial Bill and expect it to give them similar support. They can forget that idea--I went through that experience four years ago. I know exactly what hon. Members are in for if they believe the assurances given them by British Rail.Mr. Waller rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
Question put, That the Question be now put :--
The House divided : Ayes 169, Noes 40.
Division No. 35] [10 pm
AYES
Adley, Robert
Aitken, Jonathan
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North)
Bates, Michael
Bayley, Hugh
Beggs, Roy
Bellingham, Henry
Beresford, Sir Paul
Blackburn, Dr John G.
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bowis, John
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Graham
Browning, Mrs. Angela
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Cash, William
Chaplin, Mrs Judith
Chapman, Sydney
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Davies, Quentin (Stamford)
Day, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Durant, Sir Anthony
Eggar, Tim
Elletson, Harold
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Fishburn, John Dudley
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)
Forth, Eric
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Freeman, Roger
Gardiner, Sir George
Gillan, Ms Cheryl
Gorst, John
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Gunnell, John
Hague, William
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Alan
Hawkins, Nicholas
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Hendry, Charles
Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Hinchliffe, David
Horam, John
Hoyle, Doug
Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, Michael
Jenkin, Bernard
Jessel, Toby
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Kilfedder, Sir James
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
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