House of Commons Hansard Debates for 18 May 1992

Hansard

Monday 18 May 1992

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[ Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]

Selection

Ordered,

That Mr. Archy Kirkwood be a member of the Committee of Selection. That the member of the Committee of Selection nominated this day shall continue to be a member of the Committee for the remainder of this Parliament.

That this Order be a Standing Order of the House.-- [Mr. Arbuthnot.]

Oral Answers to Questions

TRANSPORT

Estuarial Crossings

1. Mr. Win Griffiths : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he intends to review his policy concerning tolls on estuarial crossings.

The Minister for Public Transport (Mr. Roger Freeman) : We see no reason to change the view taken by successive Governments over many years that it is reasonable for major estuarial crossings to be tolled. Such crossings are often exceptionally expensive and confer exceptional benefits on their users.

Mr. Griffiths : The Minister's reply is extremely complacent. Has he ever tried crossing the Severn bridge from England into Wales during the rush hour? If he does,

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he will find that there are hours of delays, confusion and chaos, and will realise that the whole new system of charges is unfair to all users--particularly to those such as private van users. Does he realise that many people in Wales regard the new charges as a conspiracy foisted on Wales by the English tourist board and the Department of Trade and Industry in an attempt to discourage visitors and industry from going to Wales? May I prevail on him to review the charges urgently?

Mr. Freeman : The Welsh economy--and, indeed, that of England--needs a second Severn bridge quickly. Private sector provision of a bridge costing £300 million, with associated road systems costing £200 million, will be good for Wales and good for Britain. Moreover, the bridge will be built more quickly than it would be if it were provided by the public sector alone.

Cycling

2. Mr. Waller : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has to encourage safer cycling.

The Minister for Roads and Traffic (Mr. Kenneth Carlisle) : We shall continue to provide support and technical advice to local highway authorities on traffic engineering techniques to help cyclists and shall undertake publicity and other initiatives as the opportunities arise.

Mr. Waller : As I am sure my hon. Friend will agree, cycling is an extremely healthy and environmentally friendly activity, but, unfortunately, the casualty rate is far higher than it should be. Will he encourage local highway authorities, when developing their future plans, to incorporate dedicated cycle tracks and other means of making cycling as safe as humanly possible?

Mr. Carlisle : My hon. Friend makes some good points. We are anxious to promote proper and dedicated cycle routes in our towns and cities and our regional cycling officers--who exist in every region--are working hard with local authorities to promote such routes. Good schemes are available in a number of our cities, including Exeter, Nottingham and Cambridge.

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Ms. Walley : Does the Minister realise that we need an integrated approach to transport which includes cycling and accepts its importance? Does he agree that 47 per cent. of local journeys could be made by bicycle? Will he now make it a priority within his Department to enable local authorities to plan for cycling, because, if he does not, it will be clear that the Government do not have the political will to get the nation on its bike?

Mr. Carlisle : The hon. Lady obviously did not listen to what I said. We are working closely with local authorities to develop cycle routes. I suggest that the hon. Lady goes away and reads some of our traffic advisory leaflets or local transport notes, which explain just how we are working with local authorities to make life easier for cyclists.

London Underground (Crime)

3. Mr. Booth : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on the measures taken by the Government to combat crime on the London Underground.

The Minister for Transport in London (Mr. Steve Norris) : Serious crime on London Underground has fallen by 40 per cent. over the past three years. The police presence has been increased and London Underground has mounted a programme of introducing video cameras and other security measures at selected stations. I welcome the progress that London Underground has already made and I share its commitment to see crime levels reduced still further in future years.

Mr. Booth : Since the Northern line was the first underground railway to be constructed in London and as it is taking a long time to repair and reform it, will my hon. Friend say what is to be done on the Northern line to combat crime and to introduce other forms of investment?

Mr. Norris : My hon. Friend will find that the Northern line will figure significantly in his constituency correspondence. It is fair to say that in the past the Northern line had a worse reputation than it now enjoys. The Monopolies and Mergers Commission report specifically refers to the improvements that have been made to the Northern line and that line is the major investment project that London Underground will undertake after it has completed work on the Central line.

Mr. Cohen : May I congratulate the Minister on his appointment? Did he read about the appalling case of male rape that took place on the London Underground in recent weeks? Does he agree that both men and women could be victims of sexual assaults on certain parts of the underground because they are unsafe? Will he call for a full review of safety for passengers so that there is video camera surveillance and staff who can supervise the video cameras and also act if assaults occur?

Mr. Norris : I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks. I quite understand and appreciate his concern about an appalling crime recently committed on a young man on the underground. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will consider that crime in the context of a very considerable reduction in crime on the underground including, thankfully, a substantial reduction in violent crime. It is worth reminding the travelling public that the

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precautions that are appropriate when travelling anywhere in a large city are just as appropriate even now on the London underground.

Mr. John Marshall : I congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister on his appointment. Would he and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State be willing to come and savour the delights of the Northern line? Its reputation is not quite as high as my hon. Friend indicated. Mr. Tony Banks : The Minister cannot get his BMW down the Northern line.

Mr. Norris : I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. I certainly intend to savour the delights of the Northern line, whether or not the car park is large enough to accommodate any particular type of car.

Ms. Ruddock : I congratulate you, Madam Speaker, and the Minister on your appointments. Has the Minister had an opportunity to consider, and does he endorse, London Underground's company plan which includes reducing staff by one quarter? That would mean a reduction of 5,000 people, many of whom are uniformed station staff whom we believe deter crime. How will that company plan help to reduce or continue to reduce the crime rate on the London underground? Mr. Norris : I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her kind words and for the opportunity to make it plain that the objective of the London Underground company plan is a more efficient, effective and safe rail system. The hon. Lady will know that the reductions in numbers are largely accounted for by the very substantially increased levels of investment. I am sure that she is also aware of the assurances that London Underground has certainly given to me that passengers will see an increased staff presence. There will be more frequent patrols of platforms. British Transport police will be deployed more effectively and video coverage will be extended.

Traffic Congestion

4. Dr. Michael Clark : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what measures he is taking to reduce traffic congestion in south-east Essex.

The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. John MacGregor) : My Department and Essex county council are preparing several schemes that will benefit south-east Essex directly or indirectly. These schemes will complement work already completed and bring about a progressive improvement in traffic flows on both trunk and county roads.

Dr. Clark : May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his new appointment and wish him every success in his high office? Is he aware that Essex county council has been diligent in providing new roads and bypasses in the northern and central parts of the county where population is sparse, or at best moderate, but has not done so much for the south-east of Essex where there is heavy traffic and a great deal of congestion on the roads? Will he assist in redressing the balance by providing some funds for the Rochford bypass so that people may travel in and out of the Southend conurbation without bringing my constituency to a halt?

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Mr. MacGregor : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. He will know that the Rochford bypass scheme might be eligible for transport supplementary grant suport. It is, of course, for Essex county council to decide what priorty to give to schemes which it submits for TSG support. He will also be aware that we accepted 18 major schemes in Essex in the past 10 settlements, so the county has received significant grant support. The bids for next year's TSG are expected by the end of July. I shall, of course, give careful consideration to Essex county council bids, whatever they are, but, as the House will know, all major schemes must compete for funds nationallly on their merits. There are many more schemes than can be entertained in one year.

Mr. Mackinlay : Will the Secretary of State reflect that one of the best ways to reduce congestion in south Essex would be major funding of our clapped-out Fenchurch Street-Tilbury-Southend railway line which is universally considered to be an absolute shambles? Both sides of the House look to him for an early remedy. Will he consider that whatever happens to this afternoon's legislation, it will be irrelevant to the immediate needs of commuters and travellers in south Essex who want an immediate upgrading of that clapped-out railway line, which his Government have failed to fund for many years?

Mr. MacGregor : This afternoon's debate will not be irrelevant. It is important for achieving improved services that we go down the route that we propose for British Rail. So what we shall discuss this afternoon will be highly relevant.

Dr. Spink : Is my right hon. Friend aware of the need for a second exit road from Canvey island not only to relieve congestion but for sound safety reasons to enable the island to be evacuated in the event of another disaster such as the one that befell it in 1953?

Mr. MacGregor : I have already said that it is for Essex county council to decide on the priority given to such schemes. But Essex has received favourable settlements, given that on average some £16 million each year for the past 10 years has gone into its TSG support. However, we shall consider the priorities that Essex county council puts forward when it submits its bids in July.

Motorway Accidents

5. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on his response to Professor James Horne of Loughborough university in relation to drivers' sleep as a cause of motorway accidents.

Mr. Kenneth Carlisle : Experts differ on the extent to which fatigue is a cause of road accidents. We have recently received advice from the Medical Commission on Accident Prevention which we are currently considering.

Mr. Dalyell : Does the significant number of accidents that take place between 4 and 6 o'clock in the morning and the number of accidents involving moonlighting taxi drivers justify extra research funds?

Mr. Carlisle : The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. Our Transport Research Laboratory is also investigating the problem to see whether we can understand it better. That is important. However, there is a commonsense answer, too--that people who feel tired

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simply should not drive or should stop driving for a little while. That is incorporated in "The Highway Code", rule 29 of which says : "Do not drive if you feel tired or unwell."

Mr. Simon Coombs : Does my right hon. Friend agree that in order to ensure that motorists have an opportunity to stop their journey when they feel tired it is important that motorway service areas are available? In that context, will he take note that on the M4 there is no service area between Heston and Membury--a distance of 60 miles? That is exacerbated by the fact that many motorists join the M4 from the M25 where there are no services. This causes considerable problems. Will he consider the matter and let the House know what can be done?

Mr. Carlisle : My hon. Friend makes a good point. As he knows, we are studying the motorway service area system to decide whether it should be less regulated and whether a private approach would lead to more much- needed service areas. I agree that more service areas would make life easier for motorists who become tired.

Networker Trains

6. Mr. Jacques Arnold : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement on progress being made with the introduction of Networker 465 rolling stock on the north Kent line.

Mr. Freeman : I understand that nearly all the infrastructure works have been completed and that the first of the new trains will enter service during the summer. Last month Network SouthEast ordered a further 188 Networkers to complete the replacement of the Kent link rolling stock.

Mr. Arnold : My hon. Friend will know that people in north Kent welcome the arrival of those carriages, especially as we have had to put up with cattle truck conditions for many years. They note that deliveries of Networker trains are now taking place, and bear in mind the fact that at the last election they were told that they had not even been ordered.

Mr. Freeman : I assure my hon. Friend that the Government said earlier in the year that when British Rail had completed its corporate plan preparations, it would consider whether it could place an order, and it did so. Conservative Members are delighted that it was able to do so within the funds provided by the Secretary of State for Transport.

Mrs. Dunwoody : Is it true that the Secretary of State received a visit from the chairman of British Rail, who asked for a great deal more investment in rolling stock, and said that that was only one of the orders which are urgently required not only throughout the south-east, but throughout the railway system?

Mr. Freeman : My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has regular meetings with the chairman of British Rail while he is setting out his plans for the next 10 years. During this year's public expenditure survey discussions, I am sure that the chairman will be outlining what he sees as the needs for the next 10 years.

Mr. Dunn : The Minister's answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesham (Mr. Arnold) will be welcomed by

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the people of Dartford, especially as they have had to suffer inadequate, elderly rolling stock for years--rolling stock so old that the graffiti says "Down with Attlee."

Mr. Freeman : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I have visited Dartford station in his constituency and have seen the condition of some of the railway carriages and power units. My hon. Friend will know that the new Networkers will be of great benefit to all constituencies on the north Kent line.

Dr. Kim Howells rose --

Madam Speaker : We are dealing with north Kent, Dr. Howells.

Dr. Howells : Yes, I know. Will the Minister ensure that rolling stock coming on to the line in north Kent has safer door locks than the rolling stock on 125s and other high-speed trains? Will he review the fact that it seems that British Rail and the Health and Safety Executive are backtracking on previous cover-ups on deaths which occurred as a result of those faulty locks?

Mr. Freeman : The Health and Safety Executive is not backtracking or trying to cover up anything. In the past year it has carried out a detailed inquiry into the cause of death following falls from trains and I understand that it is to hold a press conference on Wednesday to outline its conclusions. I know that when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport receives the review by the Health and Safety Commission he will express his own views. That will be later in the summer. I am pleased that the executive is coming forward with clear conclusions, which will be unveiled on Wednesday.

Bus Deregulation

7. Mr. Ancram : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what effect bus deregulation has had on route coverage.

Mr. MacGregor : The deregulation and privatisation of bus services has resulted in a 19 per cent. increase in bus mileage with many new services to areas not previously served by buses. Operator costs have been reduced by more than a third and local authority subsidies have been halved.

Mr. Ancram : While I welcome my right hon. Friend's reply as a further sign of the success of the Government's bus deregulation policy, is he aware that in certain rural areas the improvement in bus services has not been totally commensurate with the figures that he has given? Has his Department any plans to encourage private operators to consider new initiatives, such as dual service systems like post buses, to provide much- needed bus services in rural areas?

Mr. MacGregor : As my hon. Friend knows, my constituency consists of large rural areas similar to those that he has described. For some years we have experimented with post buses, community buses and so on. There are particular problems in far-flung rural areas where there is increased car ownership, because the minority who do not have cars are left behind. That is why one needs innovative rural transport schemes of the sort

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that my hon. Friend suggests. The Department provides up to £1 million a year to the Rural Development Commission to encourage such schemes.

Mr. Roy Hughes : What good is deregulation when buses have to pay heavy tolls to cross the Severn bridge to go into Wales? Is not that highly detrimental to the Welsh tourist trade? Besides which, such tolls are no encouragement to people to use public transport, a policy which the Government espouse from time to time.

Mr. MacGregor : My hon. Friend has already dealt with the question of tolls, which has nothing to do with deregulation. The key to assisting the tourist industry in Wales and elsewhere is for the second Severn crossing to be built as quickly as possible. The increase in tolls will help to do that.

Mr. Harry Greenway : Is my right hon. Friend aware that Hoppa buses are not suitable for disabled people because access to them is difficult? Will he encourage the private companies that use Hoppa buses to undertake an investigation to see whether better access for such people can be arranged?

Mr. MacGregor : I know of my hon. Friend's interest in this and the point that he has made has already been expressed to me by a number of people since I became Secretary of State. I, too, have a particular interest in assisting disabled people. We are currently considering this issue in exactly the way in which my hon. Friend suggests.

Leicester Eastern Bypass

8. Mr. Vaz : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he has now received the report from Travers Morgan into the proposed Leicester eastern bypass.

Mr. Kenneth Carlisle : No. Preliminary investigations are continuing.

Mr. Vaz : I have no doubt that the Minister is aware of the enormous hostility by the residents of the eastern part of the city of Leicester to the establishment of the eastern district distributor road, the EDDR, by the county council. Will he confirm that his Department has forwarded to Travers Morgan the new proposals that have been put forward by community groups--the Henwood proposals--which would seek to amalgamate the EDDR with the eastern bypass? Will he also give a commitment to the House that the Government will establish an eastern bypass before the end of the century?

Mr. Carlisle : I recognise that the eastern bypass for Leicester is important for the entire community. However, one must also recognise that the eastern district distributor road is basically local. Studies have shown that it would carry 90 per cent. of local traffic and therefore 10 per cent. only of trunk road traffic. The whole point of the eastern bypass is to form a strategic trunk road to carry traffic from the A6 to the A46.

British Rail (Funding)

9. Mr. French : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport it he has reached any conclusions on the future funding of British Rail.

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Mr. MacGregor : British Rail and the Government will be discussing BR's funding for the next three years as part of this year's public expenditure discussions. Current levels of investment in BR are the highest for 30 years.

Mr. French : I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Can he specify how substantial BR's investment programme has been in the past five years? Can he give us an estimate of how much it needs to be in the next five years in order to maintain and improve rail services to the standard and quality required by the public?

Mr. MacGregor : I shall certainly say something about that later this afternoon. I cannot, of course, comment on the next five years, because, as I said, such funding will be included in the discussions that I will have in the summer and will be part of the public expenditure survey. My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the past five years, when more than £4 billion in real terms was invested. That money represents capital investment alone and leaves aside other public sector funding for BR.

Mr. Bennett : Can the Secretary of State confirm that unless BR gets more money it will have to go in for more railway closures? Will he consider carefully the farcical procedures that are going on now in Greater Manchester where BR first reduced the frequency of trains on a particular line to one train in one direction per week and then went on to undertake the statutory closure procedures? Does not that make a nonsense of those procedures? Surely the inquiry should be held when BR starts to reduce the frequency of a service rather than when it cuts it to the bone.

Mr. MacGregor : I cannot comment on that particular case, because that is a matter for British Rail. However, the statutory procedures have been in operation for a long time and have operated well. Under the proposals that we shall put before the House for the privatisation of British Rail and the injection of more private sector involvement, those procedures will broadly remain intact.

Mr. Adley : My right hon. Friend is invited, in the question, to draw conclusions. What conclusions does he draw from the following proposition? The best railways in the world are probably those, in France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland, to name but four, that are in the public sector and the worst passenger railway in the world is probably in the United States--it was so bad that the American Government had to nationalise it.

Mr. MacGregor : I draw a variety of conclusions from that, but I shall tell my hon. Friend just two. First, other countries are looking at the proposals that we shall debate later today and later in the Session. Secondly, when one makes comparisons with France--I have been looking at this thoroughly--one of the questions that have to be asked is whether the taxpayer is getting a good deal from that massive investment, given the resulting huge debts that are incurred by the railway network in France. If the financial situation here were as it is there, many questions would need to be asked about whether we were getting value for money.

Mr. Prescott : I wish to offer my welcome to the Secretary of State. I hope that he stays in his new job a little longer than the previous seven Secretaries of State in the past 13 years have done.

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Has the right hon. Gentleman read, among his early readings on railway finance, the British Rail report "The Next Decade" ; if so, can he confirm that British Raill wants £1 billion of investment every year for the next 10 years? I refer him to today's Library report, which clearly shows that the British rail system is the least- funded, most under-invested railway system in Europe.

Mr. MacGregor : I thank the hon. Gentleman for his welcome, and I look forward to a number of encounters with him. I am not sure whether to say that I hope that he will be in the same post for many years ahead.

As to the hon. Gentleman's question, if he is referring to taxpayers' finance and public sector funding, I have already said that if one makes comparisons with other countries, one can draw many lessons other than simply that more money needs always to be pumped into the system by the taxpayer. As to investment, at this point I cannot comment on the next 10 years. At the appropriate time, I shall comment on the next three years. About £1 billion was invested for capital expenditure in 1991-92, and we expect £1.5 billion to be invested this year.

Mrs. Gorman : I congratulate the Government on the amount of money that they have undoubtedly put into the railway system, which includes many excellent long-distance services. However, will my right hon. Friend continue pursuing the possibility of using more private money, most particularly for the Fenchurch Street line--which services part of my constituency--to which the Government gave a generous £50 million grant just before the last recess and which is looking forward to the possibility of private capital taking over and running that line?

Mr. MacGregor : I agree with my hon. Friend that that happened just before the last recess, and we have seen continuity of policy since then. I would not wish to comment this afternoon on a particular line in the context of private sector finance, but my hon. Friend made a general point about private sector finance and I therefore assume that she will be an enthusiastic supporter of the proposals that we discuss this afternoon.

Ireland (Transport Links)

10. Mr. Foulkes : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received regarding transport links between Great Britain and Ireland.

Mr. Norris : My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has not received any. The previous Secretary of State did, however, receive many.

Mr. Foulkes : What is the Government's response to the proposal now emanating from the European Commission that Dublin-Holyhead should be developed as the principal surface route between Great Britain and Ireland? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if that results in any downgrading of the Stranraer-Larne link, it will have serious political as well as transport implications?

Mr. Norris : The Government generally welcome the drawing up of outline plans as a framework for further discussion. British officials are playing a full part in the Commission's high-level working group, which was set up to consider priorities for the proposed development of a high-speed network. The hon. Gentleman will be aware of

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the statement made last year by the Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland, for Scotland and for Transport, which confirmed that the Commission's proposals would have no downgrading effect on the Stranraer-Larne service.

Mr. John D. Taylor : As 95 per cent. of Ulster's commerce and 30 per cent. of the Republic of Ireland's commerce use Larne-Stranraer as the main route between the island of Ireland and Great Britain, surely the Minister will accept that there is much resentment throughout the west of Scotland and Northern Ireland at the fact that the Commission is recommending an investment of £500 million on road and rail transport systems to enhance the Holyhead-Dublin route and to take over from the Larne-Stranraer route? When do the Government intend to respond to the Commission's recommendation? Will the Minister agree to meet an all-party delegation of Members from the west of Scotland and Northern Ireland before the Government make a response?

Mr. Norris : As I said earlier, our officials are studying the Commission's draft proposals. As I also said, the effect of the proposals is not in any way to downgrade the viability of the Stranraer-Larne service. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman is making the very point that Secretaries of State have stressed in the past, which is that the commercial viability of the route remains an attractive incentive to British Rail to continue to operate it. I shall draw to the attention of my right hon. and noble Friend the Minister for Aviation and Shipping the right hon. Gentleman's desire to bring a delegation to see him.

Network SouthEast

11. Mr. Merchant : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make a statement about Network SouthEast's achievement of its passenger services performance targets ; and what progress is being made with investment in the Kent link line.

Mr. Freeman : For the first four months of this year, 13 out of 15 Network SouthEast routes performed above the threshold for compensation after January for season ticket holders. Kent link did not. The introduction of Networkers will help British Rail to maintain better reliability and punctuality.

Mr. Merchant : Is my hon. Friend aware that although the majority of the travelling public in south London welcome the Government's steps to improve the quality and level of services, services on the Orpington to London line are still unacceptable? What pressure can be brought to bear on BR to improve the service?

Mr. Freeman : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the welcome that he gave the passengers charter, which has been a success. It is part of the Government's initiative with the citizens charter-- [Interruption.] It has been a great success. To hasten improvements on the line in my hon. Friend's constituency, I shall write to the chairman of British Rail and ask him to invite my hon. Friend, myself and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to ride on the first Networker service from Orpington.

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