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House of Commons
Monday 11 May 1992
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker-- in the Chair ]
Committee of Selection
Ordered,
That Mr. Don Dixon, Mr. Bob Dunn, Mr. Ken Eastham, Sir Marcus Fox, Sir Fergus Montgomery, Sir Michael Neubert, Mr. Ray Powell and Sir Giles Shaw be members of the Committee of Selection.
That the members of the Committee of Selection nominated this day shall continue to be members of the Committee for the remainder of this Parliament.
That this Order be a Standing Order of the House.-- [Mr. Lightbown.]
Oral Answers to Questions
WALES
InterCity
1. Dr. Marek : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has had from people in Wales regarding InterCity services to and from Holyhead.
The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Sir Wyn Roberts) : May I, on behalf of all hon. Members present, welcome you, Madam Speaker, to the Chair for your first Question Time? May I say also how delighted we are that it is a Welsh Question Time? We hope that our voices will be as sweet to you as yours is to us.
Eighteen representations have been received since revised services were introduced last September.
Dr. Marek : May I echo what the Minister said about you, Madam Speaker? That is as far as it goes. I hope that the Minister will reflect on the fact that he has no mandate whatsoever in Wales where 50 per cent. of people voted Labour, yet he will continue with a colonial Government, introducing poisoned Tory policies which nobody wants.
The Minister should not start privatising the north Wales line to Holyhead ; instead will he seek to build it up and to persuade British Rail to introduce a third high-speed train--HST--so that we in north Wales will have five direct services between Holyhead and Euston, which was the case until about a year ago?
Sir Wyn Roberts : On the mandate, I remind the hon. Gentleman that there is only one state in Britain--the British state. We are the Government of that state.
I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would welcome the privatisation proposals for British Rail, despite the fact that he is one of Jimmy Knapp's henchmen in the House, because they will surely give opportunities to private operators to extend the rail service. Sir Bob Reid,
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the chairman of British Rail, has promised my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to consider carefully the possibility of introducing a third high-speed train.Mr. Thurnham : Is my right hon. Friend aware that today is a sad day for anyone from north Wales or the north-west planning to travel by sleeper? Last year, we lost the sleeper service for Liverpool and Holyhead, and this morning I came down on the last sleeper service from Preston. Will my right hon. Friend have a word with the chairman of British Rail and ask him to think again or, perhaps, introduce a private sleeper service to serve those destinations?
Sir Wyn Roberts : Alas, the sleeper service that used to operate on the Holyhead to Euston line was not at all well patronised, but I am delighted to tell my hon. Friend that the Saturday-night, Sunday-morning boat-train service will be reintroduced under the new timetable, starting this week. I can also tell my hon. Friend that the early-morning business service from Holyhead has been elevated to Pullman status. That is very good news.
Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones : Does the Minister agree that, although we are a British state, Wales is a nation and that that nation deserves a Parliament of its own? Does he recognise the great concern in north Wales about the continuation of InterCity services following privatisation, if it is pulled through? Can he say whether his representations with Sir Bob Reid will bear fruit? Are we to have further InterCity services from Holyhead to Euston when the new timetable comes into operation in September?
Sir Wyn Roberts : Wales would lose out badly in more ways than one if it were to have a Parliament of its own.
The matters that the hon. Gentleman mentioned are for British Rail. Although we can make representations to the chairman, as my right hon. Friend has done, the final decisions must be for British Rail. Privatisation will offer fresh opportunities and should therefore cause not concern but rejoicing in Wales.
Mr. Murphy : Whatever the Minister of State's views on a mandate, does he agree that at least 70 per cent. of the Welsh people voted against the privatisation of British Rail? Does he accept that they voted in that way because privatisation will be a threat to our valley and rural lines? What role will he and the Welsh Office play in safeguarding the best interests of British Rail users in the Principality?
Sir Wyn Roberts : The Government are, of course, pledged to support many of the rail services already in receipt of subsidy. The point about privatisation is that it is an oppportunity, not a threat. For example, there is an opportunity in Holyhead to renew the freight service that was abandoned by British Rail and an opportunity for franchises for passenger services. Wales should welcome the privatisation of British Rail.
Local Government
2. Mr. Denzil Davies : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has for the reorganisation of local government in Wales.
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The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. David Hunt) : May I warmly endorse my right hon. Friend's welcome to you, Madam Speaker, in the Chair for Welsh Question Time?I refer the right hon. Gentleman to the statement that I made in the House on 3 March. The proposals that I outlined then are now the subject of consultation.
Mr. Davies : Could the Secretary of State be less coy, as the Queen's speech mentioned no legislation on the reorganisation of local government? Does the Secretary of State intend in this Session to legislate on the proposals that he has just put forward?
Mr. Hunt : The right hon. Gentleman should refer to the statement that I made to the House. He will see that the next step is the publication of a White Paper later this year, and legislation will then follow. [Hon. Members : "When?"] As soon as possible. Obviously, in the meantime, there must be continuing consultations with local authority associations. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman can persuade his party to come forward with some positive proposals in reaction to my statement.
Mr. Dover : Does my right hon. Friend accept that many hon. Members in England will be carefully watching his decision-making and that they fully endorse his belief that unitary local authorities are the best? We shall be watching particularly the effect on education in our areas.
Mr. Hunt : Yes. I am glad that my hon. Friend has given me the opportunity to point out once again that the impetus behind unitary authorities for Wales has come from the local authority associations, which presented a united front in seeking unitary status. That has not been the case in England, which gives Wales an unprecedented opportunity to lead the way in local government reform.
Mr. Barry Jones : We welcome you to the the Chair, Madam Speaker. The House has not been noted in the past for equal opportunities, and a great example has been set.
Will county elections take place next year? Councils are now utterly in the dark. Has not the Secretary of State had difficulties, having lost the battle with the Secretary of State for the Environment? We need separate Welsh legislation, and we should not be dependent on England. The Secretary of State is entitled to tell us today that he is not linked to an English timetable. Does he understand that we believe that years of uncertainty now lie ahead and, due to his action, local authorities are in chaos?
Mr. Hunt : Unfortunately, most of what the hon. Gentleman says is based on a series of misunderstandings and misrepresentations. To set the record straight, Wales is on course for separate Welsh legislation preceded by a White Paper. The timetable dates that I outlined before the general election still stand. We are well on course to achieve new unitary authorities in shadow form in 1994, which should be fully operational by 1995.
In the past few days representations have been made to me by some of the county authorities, representatives of which I shall meet later this afternoon. They have said that the county elections should be postponed. That is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, but I shall listen carefully to the representations made to me and convey them to my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary.
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3. Mr. Wigley : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions he has held during recent weeks with representatives of local government and others concerning his future structure of government in Wales ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. David Hunt : I met the Assembly of Welsh Counties on 29 April. I shall meet representatives of all local authorities in Wales later today.
Mr. Wigley : When civil servants from the Welsh Office recently visited Belfast to discuss with the Northern Ireland Office civil servants the work of executive organisations in Northern Ireland, such as the Housing Executive and others, was it with a view to centralise services currently undertaken by local government in Wales? Is the Secretary of State aware of the strong feeling in Northern Ireland that as so many of the responsibilities are carried out by the executive organisations, those bodies must be subject to democratic oversight--a factor which is equally applicable to Wales?
Mr. Hunt : I seek to draw no parallels with Northern Ireland. The Conservative Government's position on devolution was set out clearly during the general election campaign. We do not believe that a separate Welsh assembly would benefit Wales ; would mean the setting up of another bureaucratic structure that would come between the people and the Government. Our local government reforms seek to take government closer to the people.
Mr. Rowe : Since I come from part of the United Kingdom where we have to go back at least five elections to find a single Labour Member, I am glad that my right hon. Friend denies the claptrap about mandates. The cost of every reorganisation of local government since the war has been far greater than estimated in White Papers. Will my right hon. Friend make absolutely certain that, whether in Wales itself or throughout the United Kingdom via the knock-on effect, costs are truly worked out before the reforms are undertaken?
Mr. Hunt : I agree with my hon. Friend. I have placed in the Library a copy of the consultants' report on the potential reform of local government in Wales which shows that the reform proposed will be cost neutral. I warmly endorse my hon. Friend's comments.
Mr. Ron Davies : I offer my congratulations to the Secretary of State on retaining his post in the Cabinet, albeit after a little wobble. He should not be seduced by the hon. Member for Mid-Kent (Mr. Rowe) as he does have a problem since neither the Secretary of State nor the Conservative party has a mandate from the people of Wales. I hope that he will pay due regard to that factor when piloting the legislation through the House. Is he aware that there is a considerable measure of agreement that there should be change in local government and on the nature of the new local authorities? Will he assure us that when he is in consultation, he will listen carefully to what local authorities and hon. Members representing Welsh constituencies have to say? If he is prepared to do so, he will find that the legislation proceeds through the House more easily.
Mr. Hunt : I readily respond to the hon. Gentleman's comments, although I disregard his first two sentences which I felt were almost ritual. I warmly endorse his last
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remarks : I feel that there is a consensus on which we can build. I shall meet the local authority associations in just over an hour. I am ready to meet Opposition Members as and when they are ready to come to see me, which I hope will be as soon as possible.Mr. Sweeney : Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the Vale of Glamorgan will be one of the new unitary authorities, largely based on present boundaries?
Mr. Hunt : I congratulate my hon. Friend on his magnificent victory in the Vale of Glamorgan--we are delighted to see him here. In my statement on 3 March I made it clear that the Vale of Glamorgan will be one of the 23 new unitary authorities, but I also said that I was open to further consultation on the boundaries. I look forward to hearing any representations that my hon. Friend may want to make to me on that subject.
Mr. Michael : Does the Secretary of State recognise the inconsistency in his coming to the Dispatch Box to say that he is willing to listen and, at the same time, refusing to listen to what the people of Wales said to him at the general election? Does he recognise that what is needed in the government of Wales is not more quangos but the strengthening of democracy? Will he follow the example of the Labour party, which consulted and listened, and whose policy on this issue commanded support and created consensus in Wales--and won overwhelming support there, as the Secretary of State and his colleagues should recognise? Will he take heed of the consensus that we have created in Wales?
Mr. Hunt : I believe that the only real inconsistency is to be found between the words that we have just heard from the hon. Gentleman and those that we heard a few moments ago from the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies). I hope that the Labour party will be willing to discuss the new unitary authorities--the form that they should take, the way in which their internal management should be organised and the best way in which the services can be delivered--because I believe that there is a consensus. There is no great difference of opinion on the way in which unitary authorities should be introduced. There is a great deal of dissension about the boundaries, but there is an area of agreement about the broad range of local authority functions.
The hon. Gentleman may say that his proposals command widespread support, yet when they were first introduced they were strongly opposed and they were changed as a result-- [Interruption.] Yes, they were changed a short time ago. I hope that when Opposition Members have had the opportunity to consider the proposals further, the hon. Gentleman will come to see me with his hon. Friends, just as I hope that the leaders of Plaid Cymru and of the Liberal Democrats will, along with my right hon. and hon. Friends. There is an opportunity here for Wales to lead the way in the reform of local government in the United Kingdom.
Neighbourhood Hospitals
4. Mr. Morgan : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what initiatives he proposes to encourage the building of neighbourhood hospitals.
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary State for Wales (Mr. Gwilym Jones) : It is the work of the health authorities to plan health carfacilities, but I give my support to neighbourhood hospitals, for I see them bringing care closer to the people.
Mr. Morgan : I congratulate you, Madam Speaker, on your first Welsh Question Time and I congratulate the hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Jones), who represents the neighbourhood constituency to mine, on his appointment. If he applies his mind I am sure that he will be able to outshine his predecessor in the role.
Does the Minister accept, from the evidence that we have in Cardiff and in Barry, that there will be a delay of at least a year in the construction of the new neighbourhood hospitals that were supposed to follow on from the demolition of the former St. David's hospital and of the Barry neighbourhood hospital? On top of that there are horrifying reports of the forthcoming closure at Llandough hospital of the children's cancer ward and other wards. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that when it comes to defending the NHS the Tories are nothing more than a bunch of frauds?
Mr. Jones : I must thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks, which he phrased in a way that was typically kind of him. I understand from South Glamorgan health authority that the neighbourhood hospitals for St. David's and the Neale Kent hospital in Barry are meant to be proceeded with at the earliest opportunity. There is already provision in the all-Wales capital building programme, and in my new responsibilities I look forward to consulting South Glamorgan health authority about exactly that. I am also aware of the reports to which the hon. Gentleman refers about Llandough hospital and others in South Glamorgan, and I have caused them to be investigated. I have been told that the proposals quoted in the press have not even been discussed with senior management in the health authority, let alone with the health authority itself. By contrast, I suggest that South Glamorgan health authority has an excellent record. In the past year it has increased its number of in-patients by 12 per cent., of day patients by 12 per cent. and of out-patients by 17 per cent. The hon. Gentleman might care to note that and to join me in congratulating the excellent staff in South Glamorgan who are achieving these results.
Mr. Dickens : Will my hon. Friend confirm that record numbers of patients are being treated by the national health service in Wales and that the service there is receiving record funding? Does not this reflect credit on the health service and on the Welsh Office?
Mr. Jones : I am pleased to say that my hon. Friend is quite right. The health service in Wales has a record of excellent achievement and there has been a staggering increase of 227 per cent. in the number of day patients being treated since the Government came to power. My hon. Friend is also right about expenditure. New money this year amounts to £9 per week for every man, woman and child in Wales. That is an excellent record.
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High-tech Jobs
5. Mr. Flynn : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what new initiatives he intends to introduce to safeguard high-tech jobs in Wales.
Mr. David Hunt : Through initiatives such as IT Wales and Imperial Park, we shall do our best to ensure that Wales continues to maintained its impressive record of attracting high-technology jobs.
Mr. Flynn : Has the Secretary of State not noticed that the Wales high-tech industry is dying from the head down? On Friday, I watched a £1 million instrument being dumped into a skip at the INMOS-- International Metal Oxide Semiconductors--works. That instrument was in production five weeks ago. The managing director has told me that the only reason for the precious 400 high-tech jobs producing the miracle transputer being exported to France and Italy is that the Government have failed to reach a partnership investment deal with the company. When will the people of Wales be able to compete for high-tech jobs like the people of France and Italy? When will he do something to protect the transputer, which is British-made and British-invented but which will be produced in future in France and Italy?
Mr. Hunt : Discussions are continuing with INMOS and I hope that they will reach a successful conclusion. In reply to the hon. Gentleman's general point, I hope that he will visit the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Mr. Sweeney) and other constituencies throughout Wales to see the number of high-tech and other jobs, such as those provided by British Airways and General Electric, that are coming to Wales. Those jobs are due to our positive partnership with all the relevant authorities which have come together to attract a high level of inward investment. Since IT Wales started nine months ago, there have been 10 new projects with 2,000 new and safeguarded jobs. That is an excellent record and the hon. Gentleman should not seek to decry it.
Mr. Richards : Does my right hon. Friend agree that Pilkington Communications in my constituency has an outstanding record in this field?
Mr. Hunt : I am glad to have this opportunity to welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, North-West (Mr. Richards) and congratulate him on his impressive victory. He is right to highlight the achievements of Pilkington Communications in winning the Queen's award for technology. I also congratulate Peboc of Ynys Mo n on its Queen's award for technology. The House should take pride in these achievements.
Mr. Barry Jones : Why does the Gracious Speech make no reference whatever to unemployment? I remind the Minister that 125,000 people in Wales are out of work. There are many high-tech mining jobs in north and south Wales, but the Government plan to privatise the industry means that jobs will come under severe pressure.
Mr. Hunt : I am pleased to be able to announce 10 new industrial projects which are forecast to create more than 460 new jobs involving investment of more than £18 million. That means that during the past week, I have been able to announce 1,000 new jobs for Wales in businesses ranging from automotive components to food processing.
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I hope that the hon. Gentleman will pay attention to such good news and stop trying to perpetuate the general election campaign in which he so miserably failed.Dredging
6. Mr. Win Griffiths : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has any plans to meet officials of the Crown Estates to discuss the granting of dredging licences off the south Wales coast.
Mr. Gwilym Jones : My right hon. Friend has no plans at present to do so.
Mr. Griffiths : Will the Secretary of State urgently call a meeting with the Crown Estate Commissioners, because the Swansea bay study group set up by local authorities has commissioned research that shows that, over the past 20 years, the sandbanks off my constituency and those in other parts of Swansea bay have lost more than 80 million tonnes of sand. Those sandbanks are now lower and are contributing to the severe loss of sand and coastal erosion along the south Wales coast. The Crown Estate Commissioners have refused to meet local authorities and I urge the Secretary of State to intervene as a matter of urgency.
Mr. Jones : I am aware of reports suggesting that there has been significant erosion over the past 40 or 50 years. Welsh Office officials are in touch with the Crown Estate Commissioners regarding an examination of those reports. In turn, it might be worth mentioning that the Crown Estate Commissioners have had bathometric surveys carried out of the Nash bank, on which there has been dredging since 1988. Those surveys show very little change in sand levels.
Mr. Donald Anderson : Does the Minister recognise that there is real anxiety in south Wales about the results of erosion, because the effects of dredging are uncertain? Given this uncertainty, will the Welsh Office commission its own report, to allay the deep anxieties that are felt in the coastal areas? Dredging could undermine sea walls and affect substantially the sand levels along the coastlines.
Mr. Jones : The present procedure for considering dredging involves a Government view and it requires that a formal environmental statement be submitted in support of any dredging wherever there is any possibility of significant damage to the marine or coastal environment. All such dredging applications will be considered in that way. Furthermore, that procedure will be reviewed as we continue to seek improvements.
Labour Statistics
8. Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give the current unemployment rate for (a) Ynys Mo n, (b) Gwynedd and (c) Wales.
Sir Wyn Roberts : Unemployment rates for the Ynys Mo n constituency are not available. At March 1992, the unadjusted unemployment rate in Gwynedd stood at 10.9 per cent. The figure for Wales was 9.7 per cent.
Mr. Jones : The Minister will be aware that Ynys Mo n has suffered considerable job losses in recent months--for example, those at Anglesea Aluminium, Sealink Stena and the Wylfa power station--and the closures of the
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Budenberg factory at Amlwch and of the United Meat Packers plant at Gaerwen. Will the Minister assure the House that the Government are doing everything possible to create jobs in Ynys Mo n and Gwynedd and that Gwynedd can expect its fair share of inward investment in the coming months?Sir Wyn Roberts : I am happy to give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. I am sure that he will welcome our announcement today that a major company, Golden Food Products, is expanding at Llangefni in his constituency, creating 38 new jobs. Furthermore, it is planning to spend £3.5 million over a three-year period in expanding that operation. As to the situation generally, I have great faith in the fact that Ynys Mo n is a development area and that the Welsh Development Agency, the training and enterprise council and the urban renewal programme are being activated in that area.
Bus Deregulation
9. Mr. Llew Smith : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on his bus deregulation policy and the effects it is having on Tredegar.
Sir Wyn Roberts : The Government's policy has ensured free and fair competition in a deregulated bus industry. Traffic congestion in Tredegar followed the closure of the bus station owned by the former National Welsh Omnibus Co. The problem has been alleviated by the local highway authority which is responsible for such matters.
Mr. Smith : Does the Minister accept that when bus privatisation was introduced it was accompanied by the promise that there would be a cheaper, more efficient and cleaner service? In Tredegar, however, the bus company has gone into receivership. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that that has resulted in an inferior service and that there are major safety problems, especially for senior citizens? Buses continue to park in a busy shopping complex. Will the Minister show his commitment to the valley, and especially to Tredegar, by visiting the community to try to resolve the problem of the shopping centre, which has gone into receivership as well? Tredegar, which was once a proud town, is now a sad place to visit.
Sir Wyn Roberts : May I give a special welcome to the hon. Gentleman, who is not unknown to us as a Member of the European Parliament? He stands in the shadow of a great oak--his predecessor, Michael Foot. I am well aware of the situation in Tredegar, which has suffered from traffic congestion as a result of subsidence. I understand that Blaenau Gwent borough council has commissioned a report, which we shall consider. Traffic management is a matter for the local highway authority--in this instance, Gwent, which has taken steps to alleviate the problem. The former National Welsh Omnibus Co. was placed in receivership and the decision to close the local bus station was one entirely for the receiver.
Labour Statistics
10. Mr. Jonathan Evans : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest unemployment figures for Wales ; and if he will make a statement.
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Mr. David Hunt : I welcome my hon. Friend after his tremendous achievement at Brecon and Radnor. I give him the statistic that in March this year seasonally adjusted unemployment in Wales fell to 122,500.
Mr. Evans : Does my right hon. Friend agree that one reason why he was able to make the historic announcement that unemployment in Wales on a seasonally adjusted basis had fallen for the first time to the national level was the return of confidence that was brought about by record inward investment to Wales? I invite my right hon. Friend to congratulate my constituents on the inward investment that their part of Wales has attracted. It was announced last week in Ystradgynlais that Lucas SEI and Sumitomo would be creating 500 jobs.
Mr. Hunt : I agree with my hon. Friend that that was a very welcome announcement. The joint venture between Lucas SEI and Sumitomo is to be welcomed warmly. That announcement, the announcement by Original Bradford Soapworks of Rhode island on the creation of a major investment project in Alyn and Deeside--I was able personally to welcome the United States managing director on Friday--and today's announcement means, as I have stressed, that more than 1,000 new jobs are forecast for Wales. That will come on top of the previous record levels of inward investment. This is a record of which everyone in Wales has a right to be proud. We are very much top of the premier league for inward investment, and we intend to stay there.
Dr. Howells : Although everyone welcomes the announcement of new jobs, does the Secretary of State agree that much has to be improved in the way in which we carry out training and retraining in Wales? Does he understand that the Auditor-General's recently published report on the abysmal performance of an unnamed training and enterprise council in Wales is a signal that we must apply ourselves to the training and retraining of the long-term unemployed, as well as merely servicing high-tech employers in south Wales? What will the right hon. Gentleman do about the long-term unemployed in south Wales?
Mr. Hunt : I agree with the hon. Gentleman that perhaps the greatest challenge facing Wales in the 1990s is to ensure that high skills are available to supply new investors with the level of skilled technology that they will need. I have great confidence in the TECs in Wales which formed the first network of such councils to be set up in the United Kingdom. I believe that the councils are rising to the challenge, but the hon. Gentleman is right to say we must concentrate on policies that will ensure the level of skilled labour for which employers will look in the 1990s.
11. Mr. Simon Coombs : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the level of employment in Wales in (a) 1979 and (b) 1992.
Mr. Gwilym Jones : The civilian work force in employment in Wales for March 1979 was 1,140,000. The figure for the latest available date, December 1991, was 1,147,000.
Mr. Coombs : I welcome my hon. Friend to his new position on the Front Bench and I wish him well. I wish to point out to the House the improvement in the level of employment in the Principality over those 13 years, which
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is very much to be welcomed. Will my hon. Friend confirm that the latest Welsh survey of industrial development trends shows that there is a new growth of confidence in the Principality-- clearly, as a result of the Government's policies? Does not that trend seem fit to continue as we come out of the recession generally across the United Kingdom?Mr. Jones : I thank my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. He is absolutely right in the general thrust of his question. There is exactly the right combination in Wales--falling unemployment, falling inflation, falling interest rates and, significantly, a reducing pay differential against United Kingdom pay rates. That suggests confidence in the Welsh work force and the Welsh economy. As my hon. Friend says, I am sure that Wales will lead the United Kingdom out of recession.
ATTORNEY-GENERAL
Serious Fraud Office
27. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Attorney-General what new initiatives he is planning to take in relation to the work of the Serious Fraud Office.
The Attorney-General (Sir Nicholas Lyell) : Under its new director, it remains the objective of the Serious Fraud Office to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of its work in investigating and prosecuting serious and complex fraud.
Mr. Skinner : When will the Attorney-General or the fraud squad do something about investigating Olympia and York, the Canary wharf developers? Is it not a scandal that that company owes $12 billion and is in hock to the banks, yet the banks--just as with Maxwell--are lending it money to keep it afloat? Is it not despicable that the Government, through the President of the Board of Trade and Government Departments, are bailing out that company? Is it not time that instead of handing a lifeline to that squalid venture, the Government sent in the fraud squad to investigate?
The Attorney-General : Before people throw fraud allegations around lightly, they should have some evidence. Not every business that goes into liquidation or has financial problems is fraudulent. If the hon. Gentleman has any evidence, he should take it to the police.
Mr. Bermingham : Does the Attorney-General agree that there is a serious risk in fraud cases because the large ones go to the Serious Fraud Office and the smaller ones to local police fraud divisions, leaving a growing gap of cases involving sums of between £1 million and £3 million that no one seems keen to investigate or that no one has the resources to investigate? Should not adequate funds be made available to prosecuting authorities to investigate all cases of fraud?
The Attorney-General : In addition to the 60 or so cases on the caseload of the Serious Fraud Office, a substantial number are being professionally and skilfully investigated by the fraud investigation group of the Crown prosecution service, and I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to them.
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Pension Funds
28. Mr. Winnick : To ask the Attorney-General when he last met the Director of Public Prosecutions to discuss criminal proceedings against companies alleged to have misappropriated pension funds.
The Attorney-General : I meet the Director of Public Prosecutions frequently, but she is not currently prosecuting any such companies. The Serious Fraud Office is investigating or prosecuting a number of cases concerning pension funds.
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