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Mr. Speaker : Order. One question please.
Mr. Powell : I shall be brief, Mr. Speaker, but this question covers a wide subject.
In March, an inquiry was called for into the case of manager Dereck Jones, who took away property belonging to Llynfi workshop. I demand a reply from the Minister about my request for an inquiry into the financial ramifications for Mid Glamorgan TECs.
Sir Wyn Roberts : I told the hon. Gentleman that each TEC had received an increase in funding. Mid Glamorgan received an increase from £14.9 million in 1990-91 to £21.1 million in 1991-92. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing attention to the strategy document and for giving it publicity in the Chamber. That document is important, as every hon. Member concerned with training in Wales is fully aware. I am sorry that CATO, of which the hon. Gentleman was chairman, failed to achieve approved training organisation status, but he must not keep on digging and hitting at the Mid Glamorgan TECs on that account. That is small-minded of him.
Mr. Grist : Is my right hon. Friend aware that I welcome the transfer next April to his Department of the responsibility for training and TECs, and I hope that that will mean a better-focused and relevant service for his and my constituents.
Sir Wyn Roberts : I am absolutely certain that that is what it will mean. The transfer of responsibility for training to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales, initiated by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, makes a great deal of sense. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will combine that responsibility with responsibility for education in schools and, we hope, in due course for further and higher education. He has set up a special unit to deal with the transfer.
Mr. Barry Jones : Has not the right hon. Gentleman cut funding for training and cut training places for unemployed and young people? Has not he in effect created a hostile climate for companies such as Hoover and British Aerospace, which have had to slash their
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apprenticeships? A modern, productive and competitive economy for Wales would be unattainable under the right hon. Gentleman's policies.Sir Wyn Roberts : The hon. Gentleman cannot possibly have listened to the reply that I gave to his hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell). The amount available to all the TECs in Wales increased from £49.1 million to £117.1 million this year. I dare say that there will be an increase next year. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that an extra £11 million has been devoted to employment training this year. We are taking all possible steps to ensure that we have a well-trained and well-educated work force for the future. The total funding for each TEC in Wales is shown in the following table :
TEC |Operational Start|1990-91 |1991-92
|Dates
|£ million |£ million
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mid Glamorgan |23 July 1990 |14.9 |21.1
West Wales |23 July 1990 |20.4 |31.5
North East Wales |17 September 1990|6.2 |13.6
North West Wales |4 February 1991 |1.8 |13.6
South Glamorgan |4 February 1991 |3.4 |14.1
Gwent |4 February 1991 |2.4 |18.4
Powys |2 April 1991 |Nil |4.8
Note: It should be borne in mind that the 1990-91 budgets are for the
period of TEC operation only and vary in the periods they cover
because TECs became operational at differing times.
Ambulance Service
2. Mr. Michael : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to change the organisation of the ambulance service in Wales ; and whether he will make it his policy that the service should continue to be organised on a county or health authority basis.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Nicholas Bennett) : We are considering whether reform of the ambulance and patient transport services in Wales may lead to a more cost-effective service, greater efficiency and, therefore, better patient care.
Mr. Michael : Will the Minister end the secrecy surrounding that consideration and tell us his view of the Powys, Gwent and South Glamorgan combination, which is like a giant, inverted reverse question mark around the deprived county of Mid Glamorgan? Is he aware that the only reason for their proposals that has been given by the managers of those three ambulance services is that that combination would protect their market share? Will the Minister give up the nonsense about a market in care and a market in accidents? Does he accept that people in every part of Wales want an efficient local service and want to be treated as patients, not as pieces of a market share?
Mr. Bennett : We have not yet received the application to which the hon. Gentleman refers. If it is received, we shall give it careful consideration and there will, of course, be wide public consultation on it. We shall not approve any applications for changes in the ambulance and patient transport services that are not in the best interests of patients throughout Wales.
Mr. Gwilym Jones : Does my hon. Friend agree that rather than taking a dogmatic approach, and in the interests of improving the service, it would be better to
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wait to see what proposals are produced by the professionals--those who run and really know about the ambulance service?Mr. Bennett : My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that it is important that we wait to see the contents of any application and plan. I can assure the House that we shall not allow any application to go forward for consideration if it does not provide for real improvements in the way in which patients are treated in the ambulance and patient transport services. Any application that is allowed to go forward for public consideration will be subject to full consultation.
Mr. Livsey : Does the Minister agree that, as presently constituted, Powys ambulance service gives a superb service in a very rural area? Is he aware that Powys health authority is opposed to the amalgamation of the Powys ambulance service with those of South Glamorgan and Gwent? Does he agree that that would be an unacceptable combination?
Mr. Bennett : The hon. Gentleman will not expect me to comment on that-- [Hon. Members :-- "We do."]--because, as I have said, we must wait for the application to come forward.-- [Interruption.] The problem with the Opposition is that they do not want proper consultation and consideration.
Mr. Michael : The Minister is running away from the issue.
Mr. Bennett : The application has not yet come forward-- [Interruption.] I cannot be running away from something that has not yet happened. As I have said, the application has not yet come forward, but when it does, it will be carefully considered and if it seems to have-- [Interruption.] I cannot have an opinion on something that I have not yet seen. The Opposition do not want to wait for careful, mature consideration. We shall await the proposals and, when they come forward, we shall consider whether they are in a form that enables them to be put forward for public consultation. Obviously, we shall carefully weigh the views of Powys health authority in any consideration.
Women Patients
3. Mrs. Gorman : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what is the cost to the national health service in Wales of treating women suffering from strokes, osteoporosis and senility ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Nicholas Bennett : The treatments to which my hon. Friend refers are specialist treatments and information on them is not kept at Welsh Office level.
Mrs. Gorman : I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Would he like me to give him the bad news first, which is that more women in Wales are killed or severely disabled by those complaints than by all other medical complaints put together? However, the good news is that those complaints are preventable by the use of hormone replacement therapy. That medical treatment is available in two hospitals in Wales, but they operate on only two days a week. Does my hon. Friend agree that the half a million or more women in Wales should be able to receive specialist menopause care in more hospitals? May I look
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forward to my hon. Friend's Department investigating this matter with a view to improving the level of those facilities?Mr. Bennett : I thank my hon. Friend for that question. Hormone replacement therapy is available on prescription on the clinical judgment of the general practitioner or consultant concerned. It must be for the patient and her GP or consultant to look at the advantages and disadvantages of HRT. It is not a matter on which Ministers should proclaim a view one way or the other. Nevertheless, HRT is available on prescription to women who require it.
Mr. Denzil Davies : Is the Minister aware that two of the illnesses that are mentioned in the main question, strokes and senility, are part of the aging processes? However good the acute services and whatever the life expectancy, will not there always be a need for hospitals to deal with such illnesses among the chronically sick elderly? In those circumstances, will the hon. Gentleman reconsider East Dyfed health authority's proposals to close the Mynyddmawr hospital in my constituency, which provides proper care for women and men who suffer from such illnesses ?
Mr. Bennett : The right hon. Gentleman would not expect me to comment on a matter that is the subject of consultation-- [Interruption.] I do not comment on matters that are out for public consultation because at the end of the day I shall have to take a decision, and there is no point in doing so before the public have been consulted. I am sorry that some Labour Members do not appreciate that. Under the community care arrangements that come into effect on 1 April 1993, we want more people to be treated in their own homes. We want to avoid, as far as possible, institutionalising people by sending them into hospital. We want them to be treated in a caring environment in their own home. However, there will always remain a need for hospitals and it is for the health authorities in each district to make sure that such accommodation is available.
Housing
4. Mr. Martyn Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give figures of housing starts in Clwyd and Wales by (a) councils, (b) housing associations and (c) private developers for 1978 and for 1990.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Daavid Hunt) : In 1978 total housing starts in Wales amounted to 12,351. In 1990 there were 10, 183. In Clwyd in 1978, total housing starts were 1,626. That figure rose to 2,078 in 1990. I shall arrange for the other figures to be printed in the Official Report.
Mr. Jones : I thank the Secretary of State for those figures. Is he aware that there will be only 48 housing associations starts this year in the whole of Glyndwr, which, as he knows, is a rural area? Does he agree that that is a disgrace, bearing in mind that I and, I am sure, my hon. Friends receive regular visits from people who are desperate for housing in those areas?
Mr. Hunt : I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman framed his supplementary before he heard the figures that I gave, but they showed that total housing starts in Clwyd
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rose between 1978 and 1990. The basic housing programme in 1979-80 amounted to some £30 million for housing association activity, whereas this year's programme is likely to be worth about £150 million. That is an enormous increase.Mr. Alan Williams : Will the hon. Secretary of State bear it in mind that for the homeless it is rented accommodation that counts? Homelessness had risen by 4,500 before a further 2,000 repossessions took place, yet at the same time there has been a decline of 2,300 in the number of houses being built for rent. Does not the Secretary of State realise that much of the problem and the desperation of the homeless in Wales is the direct result of the policies that he is pursuing?
Mr. Hunt : The right hon. Gentleman will be aware of the extremely good document "Housing in Wales : An Agenda for Action", for which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State was responsible. On the hon. Gentleman's particular point, he should have a word with his hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones), whom I met only this morning with a delegation from north Wales. I pointed out, for example, that the flats above shops initiative has been extremely successful. There are many other initiatives.
Mr. Simon Coombs : Does my right hon. Friend agree that alongside new housing, it is important to conserve the existing private sector housing stock? In that context, will he say something about the level of renovation grant currently available in Wales?
Mr. Hunt : That is a particular success story. Total expenditure since 1979 on house renovation in Wales is about £2,000 million. Some 215,000 grants have been made for private sector renovation since 1979. That speaks for itself.
Mr. Barry Jones : Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the first six months of this year alone, 1,923 repossession orders were made for homes in Wales? That was an increase of more than 70 per cent. on last year. What advice does the right hon. Gentleman give to the hundreds of families who have had their homes repossessed because of his economic policies? Does not he realise that his glossy brochures do not help to mend the marriages under stress or put right the budgets under stress? Is not it the case that the right hon. Gentleman has no strategy and no policy, but only complacency on housing?
Mr. Hunt : It is always a matter of great sadness when anyone's home is repossessed, but the hon. Gentleman is trying to draw a veil over what happened in the 1970s, when there were considerable repossessions and when interest rates, if he recalls, reached a much higher level than they are at present. If the hon. Gentleman considers the number of housing starts instead of artificially creating anger, he will realise that the Opposition's record was not very good. Under the last Labour Government there were a number of cuts, so I hope that the hon. Gentleman will begin to recognise the progress that has been made under this Government.
Following is the information :
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Housing starts-Wales
|Total Wales |Private |Housing |Local
|associations|authorities
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1978 |12,351 |7,165 |1,184 |4,002
1990 |10,183 |7,632 |2,213 |338
Housing starts-Clwyd
|Total Clwyd |Private |Housing |Local
|associations|authorities
1978 |1,626 |1,371 |41 |214
1990 |2,078 |1,597 |375 |106
In each case housing association starts have increased and housing
associations should be congratulated on their achievements.
Housing starts--Clwyd Total Clwyd Private Housing
associations Local
authorities
1978 1,626 1,371 41 214
1990 2,078 1,597 375 106
In each case housing association starts have increased and housing associations should be congratulated on their achievements.
Common Agricultural Policy
5. Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met leaders of the farmers' unions in Wales to discuss reform of the common agricultural policy.
Mr. David Hunt : I last met leaders of the Farmers Union of Wales and the National Farmers Union on 22 October.
Mr. Jones : I congratulate the Secretary of State for taking our advice, and that of the farming unions in Wales, to go to Brussels to fight for the interests of Welsh farmers. During his talks with Commissioner Ray MacSharry, did he urge him to raise the limits on which sheep support is payable from 750 in the less-favoured areas and 350 elsewhere to 1,000 and 500 respectively? If he did, what was the Commissioner's reply?
Mr. Hunt : I certainly made the point that those headage limits were unacceptable and virtually singled out Wales as a target for discrimination. I pointed out that the headage limits affect 15 per cent. of the flock in Wales, whereas they affect only 3 per cent. of the flock throughout the European Community. That sort of discrimination is unacceptable. I am afraid that we shall have to wait for the Commissioner's response, but I made him aware of the strong feelings that exist throughout Wales on that issue. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has taken the opportunity to air that important subject.
Mr. Ron Davies : Did the Secretary of State discuss the possibility that something close to Commissioner MacSharry's original proposals are likely to be accepted in the near future by the Council of Ministers? Does he agree that if that is the case, there will be a real drop in the level of income received by Welsh farmers? While I welcome the announcement a couple of weeks ago about two new environmentally sensitive areas, is not it now the case that the only way to protect farm incomes in Wales is to adopt an environmental protection scheme covering the whole of Wales and to pay farmers to look after the countryside?
Mr. Hunt : I believe that I speak for every hon. Member when I say that we want a reform of the common agricultural policy. However, that must be done in a way that is fair to farmers throughout the Community and does not single out farmers such as those in Wales for discrimination. I welcome the hon. Gentleman's comments about the recent announcement that we made. I am sure that some measures that will link the tremendous work that farmers are doing to conserve the countryside
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with reward will come in the reform of the CAP. We must ensure that we reward farmers not only for efficiency, but for what they do in the countryside.Unemployment
6. Mr. Gwilym Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest totals of actual unemployment in Wales.
Mr. David Hunt : Unemployment has dropped by more than 1,800 and is down to just over 117,000, if we take the unadjusted figures.
Mr. Jones : Provided that we can convince them that we are not bent on the same course, are not there excellent prospects for persuading Scottish insurance companies to set up in Wales? Because of their real concerns about the consequences of a Scottish Assembly, they are being forced to consider establishing new bases south of the border. Perhaps he should suggest to the Welsh Development Agency that it sends a mission to Edinburgh.
Mr. Hunt : I am a little loath to go down the same route with the same conclusion, but my hon. Friend has made an important point which has to be taken into account by all those who plead and argue that we should move towards setting up a Welsh Assembly, overturning the four to one majority against in the last referendum on the issue.
Mr. Roy Hughes : Does the Secretary of State appreciate that all the economic forecasts point to an increase in unemployment in the period ahead? Has the Welsh Office made any assessment of what that will mean in terms of repossessions of homes, domestic discord, divorce and so on? Does he think that that should be given more serious consideration than the Welsh Office appears to be giving it?
Mr. Hunt : I am pleased to see the hon. Gentleman in his place. He appears to have made a swift recovery from his operation and we are delighted to see him here.
The distress that the hon. Gentleman described is distress to everybody. However, Wales has a higher level of
owner-occupation--about 72 per cent.--than elsewhere in the United Kingdom. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will pay tribute to the significant level of inward investment and new job announcements that have occurred in Wales in the recent past.
Mr. Raffan : What plans is the Welsh Office making in conjunction with the Welsh Development Agency and
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British Coal Enterprise, to minimise the impact on Delyn of the 200 redundancies at Point of Ayr scheduled for the end of 1993?Mr. Hunt : I have been concerned about that announcement, and I want further announcements to be made about new projects in and around the area. I have been underground at the Point of Ayr colliery, as my hon. Friend is aware. I believe it to be a remarkably good colliery, and I opened the coal liquefaction plant alongside it. I am pleased to say today that a range of projects has been announced. They are new industrial projects involving investment of more than £25 million, creating more than 500 new jobs and safeguarding about 300 others. Some of those projects are in north Wales, but I agree with my hon. Friend that we need to hear more such announcements.
Local Government Finance
7. Mr. Murphy : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he next intends to meet Welsh local government leaders to discuss local government finance.
Mr. Nicholas Bennett : My right hon. Friend will meet the Welsh Consultative Council on Local Government Finance after he has received the submissions and consultations on the settlement proposals for 1992-93, which are due in by 24 December.
Mr. Murphy : Does the Minister agree that the council tax, which he is pushing through the House now, will be seen as just as unfair and unrelated to the ability of people to pay as the poll tax? Does he accept that it is so unfair that with all the discounts and bandings, the Government will have to squander another £100 million in precisely the way that they had to squander money to dump the poll tax?
Mr. Bennett : The last thing that the people of Wales want is to return to the discredited and out-dated rating system, which the hon. Gentleman said some years ago was not supported. Labour now wishes to go back to it. The council tax proposals are eminently fair. There is a special banding for Wales, with special reductions. More than 90 per cent. of all local government expenditure in Wales is provided by central Government or business finance, not by the chargepayer. The Labour party's proposals would mean 14 bands, but we were not told the ratios between the different bands. In other words, Labour Members did not have the guts to tell the people of Wales just what their proposals were.
Mr. Wigley : Does the Minister accept that local authorities in Wales will need much more capital finance if they are to make inroads into the massive housing shortage for people on the waiting lists in Wales? Is he aware of the representations from a number of Welsh local authorities about the need for a review of housing and planning legislation to make sure that the housing problem is cracked? Will the Government call a conference in Wales to consider those serious issues?
Mr. Bennett : I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the importance of dealing with housing in Wales. My right hon. Friend will shortly be making a statement about capital allocations for local authorities. It must be remembered that the role of local authorities has changed
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from their being the providers to being the enablers. We have put considerable sums of money into Housing for Wales. This year, a record 3,500 properties are under construction. I take seriously and personally the need to tackle the housing problem in Wales, which is why we recently issued "Housing in Wales : An Agenda for Action", the first-ever agenda on housing issued by a Government Department.Mr. Edwards : The Minister states that Tai Cymru is building 3,500 homes in Wales next year. However, there are 3,500 people on the waiting list in my constituency alone. Is he aware that those people will never be able to buy, that they cannot afford to rent, and that for them very little is being developed in the council housing sector--indeed, nothing at all-- which means that they have little chance of getting into a property developed by Tai Cymru? Does he appreciate that there is a massive housing crisis in Wales, and especially in my constituency?
Mr. Bennett : No, I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's premise that not enough is being done. We are working hard on the housing problems of Wales. Housing waiting lists are not a good indication of need because they have not been validated. When local authorities have examined their waiting lists, they have found that a large number of people on them have moved or no longer need to be rehoused. That is why housing lists are not an especially good indicator. We are increasing the number of properties available for rent through the housing associations, but we must also consider the total number of properties being built in Wales. Private builders are doing a good job in building new properties for sale and that creates a knock-on effect on rented accommodation.
Through our policies, for instance those on rented accommodation, we now provide a special allocation for the flats above shops initiative. If the hon. Gentleman takes a walk down any high street he will see how that policy is working through into the provision of new housing.
Inward Investment
8. Mr. Morgan : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent discussions he has had with the chairman of the Welsh Development Agency concerning his inward investment mission to Japan, Australia and the United States of America.
Sir Wyn Roberts : My right hon. Friend has frequent meetings with the chairman of the Welsh Development Agency to discuss a range of matters, including inward investment.
Mr. Morgan : I thank the Minister of State for his somewhat opaque reply. Will he be a little more precise? Has he discussed the value for money which the chairman of the Welsh Development Agency thinks he got out of the £28,000 worth of taxpayers' money that was spent on the recent mission, which finished on 17 November? That mission involved two executives of the agency travelling around the world, including the chairman, and Mr. Shimon Cohen from Lowe Bell--the most expensive bag carrier in history, whose participation in the trip cost £7,500 and who has no specialised knowledge of industrial development. What proposals does the Minister have to
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obtain greater value for money from such round-the-world missions, particularly as the second half of this one was cancelled?Sir Wyn Roberts : I am surprised to hear such talk from an Opposition Front-Bench spokesman. He should realise that one cannot judge the value of an inward investment mission immediately afterwards. It often takes years before the results can be fully quantified. I have listened to the hon. Gentleman speak on this subject and he has made many mistakes in his statements and allegations of impropriety. He gives me the impression of being like Dennis the Menace's dog, Gnasher, who goes for anyone's ankles. My more refined hon. Friends may wish to compare him with Bildad the Shuhite, who was one of Job's most cruel comforters.
Mr. Win Griffiths : The purpose of the mission's visit abroad was obviously to obtain more jobs in Wales. Does the Minister realise that, although my constituency is one of the wealthier Welsh constituencies, 17 people are looking for jobs for each vacancy listed in unemployment centres there? Does the Minister expect that in the next six months there will be fewer or even more people looking for jobs?
Sir Wyn Roberts : The hon. Gentleman represents Bridgend which, with Sony, has one of the most attractive inward investments in Wales. He will know that we have had a record number of inward investment projects. There were 142 last year and 165 up to October this year. There were 69 overseas projects in 1990-91 and this year there have already been 59. Those 69 overseas projects were secured with the promise of 8,500 jobs and the 59 projects promised 9,000 jobs. As the hon. Gentleman heard from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, unemployment fell last month, so on unemployment, we look forward optimistically to the future.
Rail-Bus Services
9. Sir Anthony Meyer : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will discuss with the chairman of British Rail the improvement of co- ordination with bus services in Wales.
Mr. David Hunt : I understand that British Rail is discussing with county councils better ways of co-ordinating bus services.
Sir Anthony Meyer : Is my right hon. Friend aware that because of a dispute between British Rail and the Crosville bus company, for months there has been no shelter from the weather for bus passengers waiting at Rhyl station? Does he agree that this long-running and silly dispute reflects extremely badly on the Crosville bus company, which seems to think that it has no responsibility whatever for the well-being of its passengers, but, above all, reflects badly on Sir Bob Reid, who, as chairman of a great nationalised corporation, seems quite content to sit back, let matters take their course and let passengers go to hell?
Mr. Hunt : Thanks to my hon. Friend, I am aware of the position at Rhyl and am very concerned about it. I shall certainly bring what he has said directly to the attention of Sir Robert Reid.
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