House of Commons Hansard Debates for 23 Jul 1991

Hansard

House of Commons

Tuesday 23 July 1991

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

London Regional Transport (Penalty Fares) Bill

Read the Third time and passed.

PRIVATE BILLS [LORDS] (SUSPENSION)

Ordered,

That so much of the Lords Messages [16th July and 18th July] as relates to the Avon Weir Bill [Lords] , the British Waterways Bill [Lords] , the City of Bristol (Portishead Docks) Bill [Lords] , the Folkestone Harbour Bill [Lords] , the Greater Manchester (Light Rapid Transit System) Bill [Lords] , the Harris Tweed Bill [Lords] , the River Calder (Welbeck Site) Bill [Lords] , the Torquay Market Bill [Lords] and the Woodgrange Park Cemetery and Crematorium Bill [Lords] be now considered.

Ordered,

That this House doth concur with the Lords in their Resolutions.-- [The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

HOOK ISLAND (POOLE BAY) BILL

Ordered,

That the Promoters of the Hook Island (Poole Bay) Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up that date be paid ;

Ordered,

That on the fifth day on which the House sits in the next Session the Bill shall be presented to the House ;

Ordered,

That there shall be deposited with the Bill a declaration, signed by the Agents for the Bill, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill at the last stage of its proceedings in this House in the present Session ;

Ordered,

That the Bill shall be laid upon the Table of the House by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office on the next meeting of the House after the day on which the Bill has been presented and, when so laid, shall be read the first and second time (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read) and, having been amended by the Committee in the present Session, shall be ordered to lie upon the Table ;

Ordered,

That no further fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

Ordered,

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

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To be communicated to the Lords, and their concurrence desired thereto.

British Railways

(No. 3) Bill [Lords] --

Motion made,

That the Promoters of the British Railways (No. 3) Bill [Lords] shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office no later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ;

That, if that Bill is brought from the Lords in the next Session, the Agents for the Bill shall deposit in the Private Bill Office a declaration signed by them stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill which was brought from the Lords in the present Session ;

That, as soon as a certificate by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office, that such a declaration has been so deposited, has been laid upon the Table of the House, the Bill shall be read the first and second time and committed (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read and committed) ;

That the Petitions relating to the Bill presented in the present Session which stand referred to the Committee on the Bill shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the next Session ; That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on the Bill, unless their Petition has been presented within the time limited within the present Session or deposited pursuant to paragraph (b) of Standing Order 126 relating to Private Business ;

That, in relation to the Bill, Standing Order 127 relating to Private Business shall have effect as if the words under Standing Order 126 (Reference to committee of petitions against Bill)' were omitted ;

That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Hon. Members : Object.

King's Cross Railways Bill--

Motion made,

That the Promoters of the King's Cross Railways Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ;

That on the fifth day on which the House sits in the next Session the Bill shall be presented to the House ;

That there shall be deposited with the Bill a declaration signed by the Agents for the Bill, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill at the last stage of its proceedings in this House in the present Session ;

That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

Hon. Members : Object.

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Oral Answers to Questions

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

Nursery Education

1. Mr. Wray : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will list Her Majesty's Government's new measures centrally to fund nursery education.

The Minister of State for Education and Science (Mr. Tim Eggar) : We are not planning any such measures. We see no reason to change the present arrangements whereby local education authorities can determine what to spend on nursery education within the total resources available to them.

Mr. Wray : What happened to the promises made in 1972 by the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) when she was Secretary of State for Education and Science? She told the House that by 1982 she would provide 700,000 nursery school places. Twenty years later we are still 200,000 short of that target. How shall we cope with the projected shortage in the labour force if we do not provide the nursery places that are needed? Does the Minister agree that the private sector has let us down very bady indeed in the high cost of nursery school provision, with people having to pay perhaps £75 a week for nursery education for their children?

Mr. Eggar : I will tell the hon. Gentleman what happened. In 1976 there were 440,000 youngsters in nursery education. By 1978 the number had fallen to 415,000. That was the priority that the Labour party gave when in power under the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), with his cuts in public expenditure, and when the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) was Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education.

Dame Jill Knight : Is my hon. Friend aware that while many people feel that there is a strong case for helping women who bring up their children alone and must go out to work to support the family, many people also feel that women who go out to quite highly paid jobs and who want their children cared for while they earn a lot of money should make a contribution and pay for the education of their children at that stage of their children's lives?

Mr. Eggar : I believe that a large number of people agree with my hon. Friend.

Ms. Armstrong : Does the Minister remember the advice given by his right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir N. Fowler) that the Government had acted dishonestly by not increasing the number of nursery places? Does he realise the deep anxiety felt by parents up and down the country who do not have access to nursery education for their children? Is not it an entitlement that the Government should be building towards so that there is opportunity and choice for those families?

Mr. Eggar : Yes, and there are 150,000 more under-fives in maintained schools in England than there were in 1979. We have increased the number of places by 150,000 and the Labour party decreased it by 25,000 over two years.

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That is the relative record of our two parties. What is more, the hon. Lady knows that all that she can promise from the Opposition Front Bench is 50 part-time nursery places per local education authority area.

Education Authorities (Reorganisation)

2. Mr. Adley : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what consideration he is giving to the structure and size of education authorities concomitant on their proposed reorganisation.

The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Kenneth Clarke) : The Government are currently considering responses to theiconsultation paper on the structure of local government, and will be drawing up in due course guidelines for the proposed local government commission, which will cover aspects of education.

Mr. Adley : I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that answer. Will he tell the House whether he has in mind any minimum size for a local education authority as a result of the changes? Does he agree that, wherever possible, the smaller the authority the better?

Mr. Clarke : I agree with my hon. Friend that democratic accountability is improved if services are delivered on the smallest scale practicable consistent with good service. We are proposing a consultation process locally and that will not necessarily lead to a uniform national position. The Government will be issuing guidelines in due course on the impact on the education service of particular structures of local government and we shall be pointing out that a great deal has happened recently since local authorities were last reorganised. In particular, polytechnics have been taken out of local education authority control and sixth-form colleges and further education colleges are about to be taken out of local education authority control. We have moved over to a system of local management of schools so the duties of an education authority are very different from those that existed when the present authorities were set up.

Mr. Harry Greenway : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that schools will be at their best if they are self-governing in every respect? It would be better for the schools, the teachers and particularly for the children. If that were to happen, would not the role of local education authorities virtually disappear?

Mr. Clarke : I share with my hon. Friend the expectation and hope that there will be a rapid change beyond the local management of schools to grant-maintained status for most secondary schools and many primary schools. I agree that that has considerable implications for the changed role of local education authorities in the future. They will be moving over to what is known in the jargon as an enabling role because their direct management duties will have been devolved to a much more sensible local level.

Scientific Research

3. Mr. Strang : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what plans he has to increase Government funding of scientific research.

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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Alan Howarth) : The size of the science budget for 1992-93 will be considered in the forthcoming public expenditure survey.

Mr. Strang : Does the Minister accept that the level of funding for the science budget this year, including the additional funds that the Government announced last month, is wholly inadequate? For example, even with that money, the Science and Engineering Research Council is still unable to avoid closing the nuclear structure facility at Daresbury. It will have to cut its staff by 300 by 1993. When will Government give British science the money that it needs?

Mr. Howarth : The Government have increased the science budget by no less than 23 per cent. in real terms and that increase has matched the growth of GDP. It is well known that the Government's economic strategy has been to reduce public expenditure as a proportion of GDP, but we have made an exception for basic science because we recognise the Government's inescapable and important responsibility in that regard. We also believe that it is right that judgments on scientific priorities should be taken by scientists and we believe that the arm's-length principle is important. It would not be appropriate for me as a politician or for my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State to take a decision as to the priority that should be given to the nuclear structure facility at Daresbury among the range of candidates for funding through the science budget. It is entirely right that the Science and Engineering Research Council is reviewing its priorities and is seeking to improve efficiency. I recognise that these are worrying and difficult times for scientists and others who are working at Daresbury, but these choices and this prioritisation cannot be avoided.

Mr. Donald Thompson : My hon. Friend will understand that the Opposition always choose foreign comparisons. He will also know that my constituency needs a large number of well-qualified young engineers. Do we produce more engineers than, for example, the Germans or the Americans?

Mr. Howarth : My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to a fact that is too little known and too little appreciated. It is indeed the case that the number of young people in this country who are qualified in engineering and in scientifically based disciplines exceeds the number in France and Germany.

Mr. Douglas : Does the Minister accept that Scotland produces proportionately a larger number of scientists and engineers than the rest of the United Kingdom? Does he also accept that there is a crisis in the funding of science in the universities, and in particular in fundamental physics and mathematics research? What does he intend to do about that?

Mr. Howarth : We have increased the funding available for scientific work in universities. Indeed, the research councils have increased their expenditure within the universities by 78 per cent. in real terms during the Government's period in office. That is a reflection of the first-rate quality of the science that takes place in our universities, and it is enormously important to recognise that. I know that the hon. Gentleman has at heart the interests and well-being of science in the United Kingdom.

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It is extremely important for scientists and for those who speak on their behalf to present science in this country as the winner that it undoubtedly is.

Teacher Training

4. Mr. David Porter : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he has to encourage teacher training to have greater practical content.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Michael Fallon) : Our criteria for the approval of teacher training courses aim to ensure that all student teachers are trained in the practical skills they need to be effective in the classroom. But we want to reinforce this by making teacher training more school-based. We are currently looking at ways of securing this.

Mr. Porter : Further to develop the practical content of teacher training, will my hon. Friend consider a scheme whereby most classroom teachers during their careers spend at least one year at a teacher training college so that they can teach trainee teachers to teach? Would not that have a double benefit--for the trainees and for the teachers?

Mr. Fallon : I find that a very attractive suggestion. The reverse is already true--my hon. Friend might be interested to know that as from next year a teacher at a teacher training college will spend at least one term every five years back at school.

Mr. Andrew Smith : Is not it an indictment of the Government's record that after 12 years in office the Minister confesses that the Government have not yet got right something of such fundamental importance as the quality of teacher education and training? Is not it clear that the way to improve the practical content of courses is to put into effect the Labour party's proposals for a core curriculum for teacher education, which focuses on competence, and to overhaul the crucial induction year for newly qualified teachers? The chief inspector's reports repeatedly describe the induction year as the weakest link in the British system of teacher education, so what is the Minister going to do about that?

Mr. Fallon : I have yet to hear any member of the Opposition suggest that there should be less theory in teacher training. We believe that there should be more subject study, more school experience and more professional training in teacher training colleges. That is what our current review aims to secure.

Mr. Anthony Coombs : Will we support more classroom-based teacher training? In view of local management of schools, teacher assessment and the need to consider classroom practice, is not there a strong case to consider the qualifications needed by head teachers and to match their training to those qualifications?

Mr. Fallon : Yes, indeed. We are currently considering that as part of the review. It is very important for the professional development of all teachers--heads, deputies and classroom teachers--that they receive more appropriate and practical training.

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School Budgets

5. Mr. Hain : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the steps he is taking to make good deficits facing schools moving towards responsibility for their own budgets.

Mr. Fallon : Schools taking on formal delegation under the Education Reform Act should not inherit a deficit on their school accounts. Local education authorities have ample scope to cushion schools' budgets as formula funding is introduced over four years, with longer available for schools facing particular difficulties because of high inherited staffing costs.

Mr. Hain : Does the Minister accept that many primary schools in particular have had to cut teaching posts and merge classes in order to keep within budgets based on a formula for average rather than actual teaching staff? Will he announce emergency funding to make good that shortfall in time for the next school year?

Mr. Fallon : As I understand it, primary schools in Neath do not yet have their delegated budgets. Local education authorities in England and Wales were able to design their local management of schools schemes to protect not only schools with high inherited staff costs but, specifically, small schools and to allow generous transition arrangements from historic to pupil-led funding.

Mrs. Currie : Is my hon. Friend aware that five of the seven secondary schools in my constituency reported worse GCSE results in 1990 than in the year before, when national average figures were improving, and when the county budget showed that the bulk of the staff employed under the education budget were not teachers? My constituents are no thicker than the Secretary of State's constituents in Nottinghamshire ; the problem is that the county council retains a far higher proportion of the budget. Will the Minister explain how matters in Derbyshire can be put to rights?

Mr. Fallon : I would not be surprised any more at anything that happened in Derbyshire. I am becoming increasingly concerned about the way in which Derbyshire allocates its schools budget. For example, it subsidised its school meals service--to the tune of £14 million last year--for every pupil in the county, and it has not increased school meal prices since 1981.

Mr. Beggs : Will the Minister assure the House that the real motivation behind financial delegation to schools is not to obscure underfunding of the education service throughout the United Kingdom, and not to allow any failure or deficiency that may arise later to be attributed to incompetence on the part of principals and local school governors?

Mr. Fallon : The key point to grasp is that local management of schools funds not teachers but pupils. It does not change the total amount of resources available in the schools system, but some adjustments may be necessary and desirable where successful and popular schools were deliberately underfunded by local education authorities in the past.

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Grant-maintained Schools

6. Mr. Brandon-Bravo : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will bring forward proposals to limit the amount of money an individual local education authority can spend in a campaign against a particular school seeking grant-maintained status.

Mr. Kenneth Clarke : As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced on 3 July, we intend to legislate to limit the amount of taxpayers' money an education authority can spend on campaigns against applications for grant-maintained status, and to reimburse governing bodies up to the same limit for their own campaign expenses.

Mr. Brandon-Bravo : I am grateful for that reassurance. Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware of the almost pathological hatred of any movement that takes control away from Nottinghamshire county council and gives it to schools? So great is that hatred that I believe that the chairman of my local education authority would do anything, say anything and spend anything to keep his empire intact. Other hon. Members who represent Nottinghamshire seats are aware of that tyranny--the authority has sought to deny Members access to schools in case they say something wrong to boards of governors.

Mr. Clarke : I am as familiar as my hon. Friend with the extraordinary extent to which Nottinghamshire county council will go in its hostility towards schools that are not under its control. At the moment, it is distributing large amounts of leaflets to parents involved in ballots in respect of grant-maintained status in the north of the county. We believe that there is a case for factual information to be given to parents when such ballots are held and that it should be in the form of a simple leaflet on each side. We are taking steps to ensure that large amounts of charge payers' money are not spent on defending bureaucratic empires, and, I hope, to improve the quality and accuracy of some of the information put out by the local authorities.

Mr. Tony Banks : I am more concerned about the money that the Government have spent on schools that have opted out. For example, the Secretary of State knows very well that Stratford school in my constituency was due to close as part of the reorganisation but that, to serve their ideological purposes, the Government allowed it grant-maintained status. That makes no sense, given that when Walsingham school in Wandsworth wanted to go for grant-maintained status as part of the reorganisation, the right hon. and learned Gentleman refused its application. We now have to pay £6,000 for every student at Stratford and we get only £3,000 for students in the rest of Newham. The Secretary of State should stop playing politics with the kids of Newham.

Mr. Clarke : The hon. Gentleman displays all the spiteful fury that was shown by his local education authority against the wishes of the parents of Stratford school who voted for grant-maintained status. Not only were large sums spent on pressurising people to reject the application for grant-maintained status ; the authority went to huge lengths to try to stop the school opening, including barring all the future governors and anyone else concerned with grant-maintained status from the school until the legitimate date, attempting to take away equipment, and a large number of other steps. I recall that

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that was the school at which some of the staff who intended to leave asked children who were intending to stay at the school to stand up. When those children identified themselves, they were made to stand in front of the class to be berated.

Mr. Banks : It is a lie.

Hon. Members : Oh !

Mr. Speaker : Order. Fortunately, I did not hear that.

Mr. Clarke : We are organising ballots to determine the parents' wishes about whether schools should be governed by the local authority or by their own governors. There is a case for common sense and for a sensible level of information on both sides so that parents can reach an objective and non-pressurised view.

Mrs. Peacock : Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware just how much many local authorities spend on their campaigns--often outrageously political campaigns, such as that in Kirklees--to persuade parents and school governors that it is not right for schools to apply for grant- maintained status? The campaigns that they run are quite outrageous.

Mr. Clarke : What is called for is a straightforward factual leaflet produced by one side and a straightforward factual leaflet produced by the promoters. The ballots can then be carried out in a sensible atmosphere and parents can make their own choice.

Mr. Fatchett : The Department's own propaganda budget has increased by more than 300 per cent. since the last general election and the Government are spending more than £250,000 of taxpayers' money on Grant-Maintained Schools Ltd.--a Conservative party front organisation. Is not it about time that the Government introduced powers to stop the use of taxpayers' money for party-political purposes? Or are the Secretary of State and the Government so worried about the weak nature of their own policies that they have to use taxpayers' money to get their cheap propaganda arguments across?

Mr. Clarke : It is totally false to claim that the Government are increasing spending on propaganda. The hon. Gentleman describes as propaganda activities that are certainly not party political, such as the advertising campaign to recruit teachers. The hon. Gentleman has merely taken a bit of briefing from the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson), who always does these things, and who cites as examples of political propaganda all the Government's health education leaflets, including those in connection with the AIDS campaign.

In respect of ballots for grant-maintained status, we propose that there should be a simple leaflet on one side and a simple leaflet on the other. Labour authorities in particular are spending a fortune on campaigning, and the money is not theirs but the charge payers'. They are also making some extremely misleading claims in what they say about the consequences of opting out.

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School Budgets

7. Sir Fergus Montgomery : To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many secondary schools currently manage their own budgets under the system of local management of schools ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Fallon : Of the 3,853 secondary schools in England, 3,015--or 78 per cent.--have fully delegated budgets now. The remainder must have them by April 1993 or, in the case of schools in inner London, April 1994.

Sir Fergus Montgomery : Were not many people wary of local management of schools when it was first announced, but now see the benefits of it? Does my hon. Friend agree that we should encourage more schools to look after their own affairs locally instead of their being dominated by left-wing, Labour-controlled authorities?

Mr. Fallon : Yes, I have yet to hear of a school that wants to hand its budget back. However, I must tell my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Montgomery) that his local education authority of Trafford has chosen to delegate less to schools this year than last year and to spend a higher proportion of its school budget on central administration. That means that every school in Trafford this year will lose out because classroom money is being spent on the bureaucracy at Trafford town hall.

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