House of Commons Hansard Debates for 17 Jun 1991

East Midlands Electricity

16. Mr. Harry Barnes : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what action he proposes to take in response to the report of East Midlands Electricity plc on the electricity supply crisis which arose from severe weather conditions.

Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : I welcome East Midlands' comprehensive report which makes a number of recommendations. My engineering inspectorate will monitor the company's progress in implementing these, to ensure that they are carried out as expeditiously as possible.

Mr. Barnes : Is the Minister aware that the worst of the weather crisis occurred in north Nottinghamshire and in north Derbyshire where hundreds of thousands of people were without electricity and water supplies for a considerable period? That coincided with the flotation of East Midlands Electricity plc and meant that the Government did not declare an emergency in circumstances in which they should normally have done. Should not the Government have set up their own inquiry and not just depended on the inquiry of East Midlands Electricity plc?

Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : No distribution network could have survived those weather conditions without sustaining damage. All those in the industry--management and staff--worked heroically to restore supplies and it is wrong to refer in any way disparagingly to their efforts or to link the problem to the privatisation of the industry.

Mr. Jacques Arnold : While on the subject of severe weather, will my hon. Friend join me in welcoming last Friday's announcement on improvements to the cold weather payments scheme--the second set of improvements within six months? Will he also confirm that those vast improvements are greatly superior to those on offer under the previous Labour Government?

Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : I welcome that observation, although it was not my Department which introduced those improvements.

Mr. Dobson : Can the Minister confirm that there have been more interruptions in supply to consumers since the electricity industry was privatised? Before he denies that,

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will he also confirm that neither the Secretary of State nor the Office of Electricity Regulations can provide any statistics?

Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : The privatisation of electricity has resulted in significant benefits to its consumers, which include timely reaction to any interruption of supply.

Nuclear Energy (Employees)

18. Sir Trevor Skeet : To ask the Secretary of State for Energy what is his estimate of the number of people employed in Britain's nuclear energy industry.

Mr. Wakeham : The total number of people directly employed in the British nuclear energy industry is about 40,000.

Sir Trevor Skeet : Does the Secretary of State recognise that unless he is prepared to bring the review of the nuclear industry forward to 1993, he will be faced with a declining nuclear industry? Does he regard with any great satisfaction the fact that France has 75 per cent. of its total electricity produced by the nuclear industry, while Belgium produces 60 per cent. by that method? Why cannot we have a comparable figure of electricity production from our nuclear industry?

Mr. Wakeham : The answer to that question goes back to long before I was Secretary of State ; others must bear a share of the responsibility.

My hon. Friend has asked me to bring the 1994 review forward. I am sorry, but I do not believe that that would be the right course of action. I believe that 1994 is the correct time to review the future of the nuclear industry of this country because we will then have completed the Sizewell B project and we will have had an opportunity to consider the various options for the future. The nuclear industry has a good future if it is able to produce electricity at a low cost, and safely.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

Fraud

29. Mr. Carrington : To ask the Attorney-General what progress is being made in improving co-operation between the Serious Fraud Office and overseas agencies in the prosecution of fraud cases.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Nicholas Lyell) : Last week the United Kingdom implemented part 1 of the Criminal Justice (International Co- operation) Act 1990 enabling us to ratify the European convention on mutual assistance ; and on 14 May 1991 we also implemented the European convention on extradition.

Mr. Carrington : I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend. He will be aware that the position of London as the major financial centre in Europe is at least partly dependent upon our ability to prosecute fraud across international boundaries. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the measure of international co-operation now discussed will make it much easier to prosecute fraud across international boundaries?

The Solicitor-General : Yes I do. The director of the Serious Fraud Office keeps in close contact with her overseas equivalents. The measures that I have just

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mentioned will enable us to serve summonses and other judicial documents from abroad in the same way as we do here to help to obtain evidence. They also include the use of domestic procedures for police powers of search and seizure. Those measures will enable the transfer of prisoners to give evidence overseas and from overseas to give evidence here. All that is extremely beneficial.

Mr. Dickens : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that as soon as a villain knows that the game is up he immediately hot foots out of the United Kingdom to safety and support overseas? That leaves behind devastation and misery for those companies or people against whom he has committed fraud. Will my right hon. and learned Friend insist that we pull together the support from overseas agencies so that such people can be pursued and convicted?

The Solicitor-General : I agree with my hon. Friend. The object of the measures is such that those alleged to have committed such fraud can be brought back from overseas to face trial.

Grievances (Judicial Remedy)

30. Mr. Maclennan : To ask the Attorney-General what steps he is considering to ease public access to the judicial remedy of grievances.

The Solicitor-General : Following the Legal Aid Act 1988 and the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990, the Government are implementing a series of measures to improve the machinery of civil justice and, in particular, to reduce delay, cost and complexity.

Mr. Maclennan : Is the Solicitor-General aware that the recently published proposals by the Lord Chancellor on legal aid are widely regarded as the most openly retrograde steps proposed since legal aid was introduced in the late 1940s and that they are universally condemned by the legal profession and consumer organisations throughout the country? In the light of the already apparent hostility, will he withdraw them?

The Solicitor-General : The Lord Chancellor's consultation document deserves rather closer examination than that. It offers an opportunity for extending the limits of legal aid upwards in areas where it has not attempted to go under any Government. Whether it will be possible to do so will depend to some extent on the finances available. That it offers an opportunity in that direction, when hitherto no such opportunity has appeared, is something which the hon. Gentleman should no overlook.

Mr. Lawrence : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that a state-funded insurance scheme, which could cover many more people at much less cost than the present legal aid scheme, or tax relief on private insurance, would ensure that there was much greater access to the judicial system than there is at present?

The Solicitor-General : My hon. and learned Friend picks up another of the points to be found in the Lord Chancellor's consultation document, which is well worth careful examination.

Mr. Fraser : Is not the proposal simply the equivalent of urging people to take out a BUPA subscription instead of

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using the national health service? Can the Solicitor-General confirm that as a result of the recent freezing of the upper limits of legal aid for income and capital, 1.1 million people who would otherwise be eligible for legal aid are being left out and that there is nothing whatever in the Lord Chancellor's consultative paper to provide any compensation for those who will be disqualified from legal aid simply by saving? Will he please confirm that there is no policy of permanently freezing those upper limits?

The Solicitor-General : There is no policy of permanently freezing the upper limits. Obviously, the non-increase in them this year will have some effect on the numbers who are eligible. The matters that are open for consideration in the consultation document offer opportunities for legal aid in areas where hitherto it has not been available. They include legal aid insurance, which is to be seen in some areas--property insurance policies sometimes include this--and should not be viewed narrowly.

Crown Prosecution Service

31. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a statement about vacancy rates in the Crown prosecution service.

The Attorney-General (Sir Patrick Mayhew) : Over the past 12 months 315 lawyers have entered the service and vacancies have fallen from 22 to 13 per cent. Vacancies for administrative staff are 4 per cent.

Mr. Marshall : I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that answer which demonstrates a dramatic improvement. What hope does he have that the other vacancies will be filled speedily?

The Attorney-General : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he said. The trend is a positive one. It reflects not only the increased salaries available--they are highly competitive--but the improvement in the quality of career which the service offers. We shall continue with that, and I hope to see the service fully recruited in the short term.

Mr. Bermingham : Does the Attorney-General agree that basically vacancies and recruitment problems happen to be in London and the surrounding areas? Does he further agree that were London to recruit at the same levels as Yorkshire, Manchester or many other areas, the service and the courts in London would be that much more enhanced? They are simply overworked in London.

The Attorney-General : Yes, the hon. Gentleman, who has close knowledge of these matters, is right that London is certainly one of the worst areas--or parts of London are. Humberside is another bad area. We must analyse the reasons why. Advertising and the promotion of the service are now devolved to local areas, and they are making great strides. I hope that the improvement that we have noticed will continue. I think that it will.

Children Act

32. Mr. Hind : To ask the Attorney-General how he plans to deal with the changes in court procedure following the introduction of the Children Act 1990.

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The Solicitor-General : Last month family proceedings rules providing for new procedures in the High Court, county courts and magistrates courts were made. In relation to the Children Act, they are effectively identical.

Mr. Hind : I am obliged to my right hon. and learned Friend for that answer. Will he confirm that the Children Act will provide more speedy and compassionate methods of dealing with all matters relating to children? There has been much controversy in recent months and years, such as that surrounding the case in the Orkneys. Does he accept that many members of the Bar are worried about the possible deleterious effect on the speed with which cases go through the courts unless the procedure is properly organised?

The Solicitor-General : My hon. Friend is right to look forward to considerable benefits to child law from the implementation of the Children Act. It will provide a uniform system of law for all levels of court, enabling cases to be set at the right level--High Court, county court or magistrates court--as appropriate. The transitional problems are being carefully dealt with, and I have no doubt that the High Court will keep a close watch on the cases that currently come before it and those that will remain before it after the transitional period in October.

Gulf War

33. Mr. Flynn : To ask the Attorney-General if he has received any representations concerning the legality of weapons used by coalition forces in the Gulf war.

The Attorney-General : I have received representations on this subject from the hon. Member and from the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell).

Mr. Flynn : Does the Attorney-General agree that the world community should consider carefully the use of those weapons, which had never before been used on the scale on which they were used in the Gulf war? They are not conventional weapons in the usual sense. They are weapons of mass slaughter which resulted in the deaths of between 100,000 and 200,000 conscripts and injury to 300,000 to 700, 000. Is not it time that we viewed air fuel explosives, cluster bombs and daisy cutter bombs as an entirely new way of waging war which should be included, in the interest of the world community, in the inhumane weapons protocol? We must think carefully about the manufacture, sale and deployment of those terrible weapons.

The Attorney-General : As the hon. Gentleman knows, the future line taken by Britain in international legislation or conventions is not a matter for me. The hon. Gentleman particularised his question and mentioned air fuel explosives. He has asked that question before, and he knows that they have been used by only the United States in the Gulf war and only for the purpose of detonating minefields. They have never been used against personnel.

On the larger issue, it must be recognised that there will be casualties if an aggressor occupies a country and the United Nations determines that force must be used as a last resort to throw it out. The responsibility for that lies with the aggressor.

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OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

Aid

36. Mr. Pike : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if Her Majesty's Government have any proposals to improve response time for aid to meet crisis situations.

The Minister for Overseas Development (Mrs. Lynda Chalker) : Yes, we have an excellent record in responding to disasters, but we are always learning from experience. We are currently reviewing our overseas disaster management arrangements and those of the United Nations. Those reviews will be completed shortly.

Mr. Pike : I recognise that time is crucial in a crisis or a disaster, but is the Minister satisfied that although the NHS crisis teams were made available on 1 April, they were still in the United Kingdom and not in Iraq a month later on 1 May? Does she have sufficient people in the crisis unit in her Department? Does she receive the necessary co-operation from other Departments to ensure that a speedy response is given?

Mrs. Chalker : As I think the House knows, I was especially careful to ensure that if anyone went to the Gulf from the national health service as part of a volunteer team, they not only could do their work when they arrived there, but would be accepted by the recipient Government. Teams from other countries had problems which, fortunately, our teams did not encounter because of our preparation work. The people who went gave very good service.

In this three-month period we have doubled the staff in our disaster relief unit. Future plans are for a different organisation, which will respond just as quickly and effectively.

Mr. Wilkinson : Has my right hon. Friend any plans to respond in double-quick time to the horrendous disaster that is unfolding in the Philippines following the awful volcanic eruption of Mount Pinatubo? Has she been able to consult her European Community partners or the United Nations agencies? The United States is clearly in a better position than we are, as it has military personnel on the spot, and the local Association of South-East Asia Nations powers are also there. Can my right hon. Friend reassure the House, however, that the United Kingdom will do everything in its power to bring assistance to bear?

Mrs. Chalker : We greatly sympathise with the people and Government of the Philippines, who have experienced yet another major natural disaster. The embassy told us today that the Government would be requesting assistance shortly, and we shall do all that we can to meet their specific needs.

I should inform the House that Manila airport is currently closed. However, we have daily contact with our embassy, as the embassy has with the Government of the Philippines. We should not underestimate that Government's own capacity to handle the emergency, but we are ready to help.

Sir David Steel : Is not the Minister concerned at continuing reports that aid is failing to get through to the populations who need it in parts of the Horn of Africa? Notwithstanding the long-term review that she is currently

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undertaking, will she support the ad hoc re- establishment of the United Nations office for emergency operations in Africa, which was so successful in 1985-86? When the office was stood down in 1986, we were told that it could be re-established if the need arose. Surely that need has now arisen.

Mrs. Chalker : A very successful meeting has been held between Jim Ingram of the World Food Programme and the leaders of the Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democratic Front in Addis about directing relief towards the pressure points and the ports of Africa. We are certainly prepared to consider the re-establishment of the UN office, if it is needed. Our current information is, however, that good news has been received, including that of the agreement in the past 48 hours to the air drop to Nasir in northern Sudan. Last week, I was instrumental in requesting that from the Government of Sudan.

Sir Richard Luce : I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the prompt action that she always takes when any emergency arises, but does she agree that there is no substitute for international machinery to deal with such emergencies? Both she and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister have recommended action on this front ; can she tell us what progress has been made?

Mrs. Chalker : The Anglo-German initiative discussed by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and Herr Genscher on 9 June is already in being. It involves the appointment of a senior figure who would report directly to the UN Secretary General, to direct all relief measures within the UN system and to co-ordinate the relief work of the humanitarian agencies and Governments. We do not know yet who that figure will be ; we do not even know whether the initiative will be accepted internationally. There is, however, general support for the idea that we and the German Government have presented.

Mrs. Clwyd : Does the Minister agree that the crisis affecting refugees in Iraq is still unresolved? Has she seen the headlines in today's newspapers--for example,

"Major's haven plan in tatters"

in The Independent, and

"Don't leave the Kurds"

in the Daily Telegraph? Does she agree with the prediction that if the coalition forces and the United Nations do not guarantee a settlement, another million people will flee Iraq? Is she prepared for that event?

Finally, what would the Minister say to the senior aid worker who, having just returned from Iraq, said :

"The whole aid exercise has been completely wasted. If there is no artillery unit to hold the line against the Iraqi troops, the Kurds will run for their lives. They feel betrayed and they are terrified."?

Mrs. Chalker : First, let us get the whole operation of save havens into perspective. We began the exercise in April, and phases 1 and 2 have been successfully completed, providing life-saving relief for people in the mountains and bringing them down into the safe havens. We are now working on phase 3, the aim of which is to give relief to Iraqi people in northern Iraq. That means re-integrating people into their own communities in Iraq, with protection. That is why the representatives of the Iraqi people have combined to form a central development committee, formed of the indigenous organisations, with three specialist sub-committees : one in engineering, one in agriculture and one in health. With the representatives of

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the Kurdish Democratic party and the PUK-- Patriotic Union of Kurdistan--working together, it will oversee what happens in the future. That is necessary because we have always agreed-- right from the beginning--that allied troops would be deployed temporarily. We have taken no decision about the withdrawal of troops. We are in close touch with our allies and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is discussing the matter with his opposite numbers. I assure the House that, having successfully completed the first two phases, I shall ensure that other phases of the operation are successfully concluded.

Horn of Africa

37. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he has any plans to visit the Horn of Africa and Sudan ; and if he will make a statement.

Mrs. Chalker : I would be prepared to visit the Horn of Africa again if it would assist the relief effort. At present, the World Food Programme is working to ensure that maximum use can be made of Port Sudan, Massawa and Assab.

Mr. Greenway : I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. May I underline her obvious awareness of the horrendous starvation in the Horn of Africa? Will she say more about the visit of Mr. Jim Ingram to the area? What long-term measures can we support to provide food grown in the area, bearing in mind that unless people learn to grow their own food they will never overcome long-term starvation but will achieve only the short-term effect of being fed for the day?

Mrs. Chalker : We should all congratulate Jim Ingram on his visit to Khartoum and Addis. He says that he has had the most positive response from the leaders of the Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democracy Front in respect of relieving the need for food, medicine and shelter. He has also been successful in getting the interim Goverment in Addis Ababa to agree to clear roads in the Gambella area of mines, which are preventing people from moving safely, and to agree to cross-border feeding. There has also been agreement that military convoys will accompany the food convoys to the east in Hararghe. As I said in answer to the right hon. Member for Tweeddale,

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Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel), there will be a further follow up to the provision of food in Sudan, as well as the agreement to the air drops.

Charities (VAT)

38. Mr. Wilson : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has received about the effect of VAT on charities dealing in famine and disaster relief.

Mrs. Chalker : In 1991 we received four specific representations which raised the question of VAT as the primary issue. Some other representations raised the question with other issues. VAT is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who amended the legislation in 1989 to ensure zero rating of charities' fund raising, including the sale of donated goods in charity shops.

Mr. Wilson : Does the Minister accept, however, that charities, especially third world charities, are tremendously concerned that if standardisation takes place throughout Europe, resulting in the loss of zero rating to the charities sector as a whole, some £500 million of income will be lost? For example, Oxfam fears a loss of £5 million. Will the Minister make strong representations to ensure that that does not take place across the board and that there are Europe-wide discussions to draw attention to the problems that loss of zero rating would present for charities?

Mrs. Chalker : I have considered that matter and discussed it with several non-governmental organisations, including the Oxfam representatives on Merseyside. I assure the House that if the European Community were to challenge the United Kingdom legislation on the zero rating of sales of donated goods from charity shops and refunds of VAT on rents, we would resist. Should the European Community attempt to legislate further on the activities of charities, we would stongly defend their voluntary nature and independence. The hon. Gentleman has my word on that.

Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker : I shall take points of order after the statement.

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