House of Commons Hansard Debates for 22 Apr 1991

Railway Policy

11. Mr. Adley : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will seek an early meeting with his continental counterparts to discuss railway policy.

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Mr. Rifkind : I regularly see my community counterparts at meetings of the European council of transport Ministers. Railway policy was a major item on the agenda of our last meeting in Brussels on 27 March.

Mr. Adley : Has my right hon. and learned Friend noticed that while we discuss the privatisation of our railways, Community countries--with the possible exception of one small country--carry on improving their already excellent rail systems? Has he also noticed that in our party the main proponents of railway privatisation tend to be those who delivered the poll tax to a grateful nation? Will he please ensure that we do not have a poll tax on wheels ; and will he not muck about with the rail system in such a way that he has to come to the House and tell my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Amos) that he cannot demand privatisation and a continuing level of subsidy at the same time? There is no sense in continuing heavily to subsidise the system if one's purpose is to privatise it. We need a transport policy that seeks deliberately to transfer traffic from road to rail.

Mr. Rifkind : I believe that my hon. Friend is out of touch with the mainstream of European opinion on this matter. Not only are the Dutch Government considering the privatisation of their railways, but the European Commission has expressly called for the introduction of competition to the railways. Therefore, on this--though on no other matter I disagree with my hon. Friend and prefer the views of the hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Ms. Ruddock), who was quoted in the South London Press on 12 April as saying that a privatised rail network may provide a "higher standard service".

Ms. Ruddock : The Secretary of State misquotes me, of course, as I made it very clear that even if privatisation could provide a higher standard of service it would also undoubtedly provide much higher fares. When the right hon. and learned Gentleman meets his continental counterparts, will he take advice from them on fares? He cites the Dutch Government, who intend to double the number of people travelling on public transport in the next 20 years. Surely in this capital city we should be doing the same. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman really want to get people off the tube and off the railway into their private cars, thereby causing further congestion? Has he seen and does he agree with the editorial in the Evening Standard today which says that when people begin to lose confidence in their Government's ability to run a railway they will question their ability to run anything else?

Mr. Rifkind : The hon. Lady has some explaining to do because the South London Press directly quotes her observations on this matter, to the effect that a privatised railway network may provide a higher standard of service. I note that the hon. Lady has not withdrawn that observation.

The hon. Lady should realise that if she wishes, as I wish, to encourage more people to use the railway service, it is manifestly clear that the best way to do that is to ensure that the railways face the same competition as other transport services. Experience with the airlines, buses and other forms of transport has invariably shown that the travelling public get a better quality of service when choice is available. That is why the Dutch and Japanese Governments and the European Commission are pointing

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in that direction. On past form, we shall have to wait only a few years before the Labour party comes along in the same direction.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

Crown Prosecution Service

30. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a statement on the work of the Crown prosecution service.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Nicholas Lyell) : Last year the Crown prosecution service completed proceedings relating to nearly 1.6 million defendants in the magistrates court and more than 140,000 defendants in the Crown court.

Mr. Marshall : What success is the Crown prosecution service having in recruiting additional staff?

The Solicitor-General : Over the past year recruiting has been very successful. The rate of recruitment has doubled, with a net gain of 210 lawyers in post, which means that vacancies have fallen from 23 to 15 per cent. That has been heartening to the service, and efforts are continuing, especially in areas still under stress.

Mr. Maclennan : Does the Solicitor-General believe that the process has speeded up as a result? Is this having any impact on the numbers of people held on remand?

The Solicitor-General : I think that it is having a good effect on the efficiency of the service, on the ability of the service to carry out its review and on the ability of lawyers in post to do more of the work in court--as well as on their general reviewing work--and that is to the general benefit. I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a statistical answer on speed, but if he writes to me I can send him the information.

Mr. Nicholas Brown : The Solicitor-General will recall that the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985, which set up the Crown prosecution service, received all-party support. Nevertheless, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris) and I raised questions about the relationships between the heads of the services, chief constables, salary levels and the professional status of the service's employees. Obviously these were matters that would be judged over time. I remember that we asked for a review after five years and that the Attorney- General rejected our request. We now have a report from the Public Accounts Committee, which draws attention to the fact that two and a half years after its inception the objectives of the service have not yet been met and that it is costing twice as much as the previous arrangements. Those are matters for which the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General are directly responsible, so it seems fair to ask the Solicitor-General what he intends to do about them.

The Solicitor-General : The hon. Gentleman should remember the constructive and frequently praising remarks of the Select Committee on Home Affairs when it carried out its review nearly a year ago. The salaries, the career structure and the training scheme that have been brought into place in the past year have all had an excellent effect on morale within the service and on the recruitment that I have described to the House.

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The Gulf

31. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Attorney-General if he will set out his duties in relation to the conduct and aftermath of the Gulf war and observance of human rights and international law.

The Attorney-General (Sir Patrick Mayhew) : As the Government's principal legal adviser, I give advice to Ministers on any matter involving domestic or international legal issues.

Mr. Dalyell : May I ask the Attorney-General the question of which I gave his office notice this morning? What has been the Government's legal and other response to the request made by Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan on behalf of the United Nations refugees committee that sanctions should be lifted? Is not it desperately urgent, in view of the sweltering summer and the likely outbreak of hepatitis, cholera and typhoid? If we are to help the Shias and Kurds, do not we sometimes have to talk to Baghdad?

The Attorney-General : It is true that the hon. Gentleman, in his invariably courteous way, gave me notice of his question earlier today. I have to say that the matter is one of policy for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the provisions of Security Council resolution 687, which was adopted on 3 April, and especially paragraph 20, which lifts sanctions imposed by resolution 661 in respect of foodstuffs, subject only to notification to the sanctions committee.

Mr. Winnick : Will any steps be taken with the relevant international bodies to ensure that those responsible for the crimes committed in Kuwait during the terror of Iraqi occupation and the crimes further committed against the Kurds will be tried by an international tribunal? As Nazi war criminals were tried in 1945-46 for crimes against humanity, why should Saddam Hussein be exempted from the same rules? There is undoubtedly a strong case that he should be tried as well.

The Attorney-General : These matters depend upon a clear understanding of all the facts when they become available. The hon. Gentleman will recall that the Foreign Ministers of the Twelve agreed--I think that it was last week--to work towards bringing criminals, and Mr. Saddam Hussein in particular, to justice. It is necessary, first, to have a clear understanding of the facts. The hon. Gentleman will also recall, as my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said, that we do not have Saddam in our power.

Birmingham Pub Bombings

32. Mr. McFall : To ask the Attorney-General when he last discussed the Birmingham pub bombings case with the Director of Public Prosecutions.

33. Ms. Short : To ask the Attorney-General when he last discussed the Birmingham pub bombings case with the Director of Public Prosecutions.

The Attorney-General : I frequently meet the Director to discuss departmental matters, and I last did so on 18 April, but I do not disclose the particular matters discussed.

Mr. McFall : Will the Attorney-General confirm that a number of police officers who must have lied and

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fabricated evidence are still on duty? Are there any plans to suspend them, or may we expect business as usual in the West Midlands police force?

The Attorney-General : The hon. Gentleman will know that the Devon and Cornwall police force is carrying out investigations of a criminal nature into certain police officers who were named in the judgment of the Court of Appeal. More than that it is not proper for me to say at present.

Ms. Short : The Attorney-General will recall that the trial judge in the case said that if what the defendants were saying was true it would amount to the biggest conspiracy in the annals of criminal history. Can he assure us that he is dealing with the matter that seriously and that he will secure the prosecutions of those who organised it rather than a couple of low-level fall guys?

The Attorney-General : I do not think that the hon. Lady would expect the Director of Public Prosecutions to do more than apply the code for Crown prosecutors in this instance exactly as it is applied in other instances--that is, to look to see whether, at the conclusion of the police investigation, which is far advanced, there is enough evidence to give rise to the realistic prospect of a conviction and the public interest requires a prosecution. That is the test, and he will apply it.

Mr. Dickens : Will my right hon. and learned Friend please advise the House whether the Birmingham Six were released because they could not possibly have carried out the pub bombings, because there was reasonable doubt, or because the evidence on which they were prosecuted was unsafe? That is a matter of public interest.

The Attorney-General : As the Court of Appeal made clear in the concluding words of its judgment, it held that the convictions were unsafe and unsatisfactory on each of two specific grounds. Accordingly, the appeals were allowed. The consequence is that each of the Birmingham Six is entitled to the same presumption of innocence as anybody else in the country.

Mr. Peter Bottomley : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the basic problem is that the IRA, like the Disloyalists, go around killing people when the answer in Northern Ireland is for people to settle their differences by discussion and disagreement rather than by murder?

The Attorney-General : Of course I agree with my hon. Friend, as the whole House must agree, that that is a consummation devoutly to be wished. As soon as military and paramilitary organisations adopt that rule, we shall all be greatly satisfied and many innocent people will be relieved of the fear of death, let alone of wrongful conviction, from which they have suffered for so many years now.

Appeals

35. Mr. Simon Hughes : To ask the Attorney-General what is the present average delay between (a) date of conviction, (b) granting of leave to appeal and (c) determination of the appeal in criminal cases in England and Wales ; and if he has any plans to speed up the appeal process.

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The Solicitor-General : Based on a sample of cases heard by the Court of Appeal in March this year, the average time between the lodging of a notice of appeal and decision by the single judge was just over 12 weeks, and from the grant of leave to appeal to final decision by the full court was just over 20 weeks.

Mr. Hughes : I am grateful to the Solicitor-General. I am sure that he realises that one of the greatest causes of complaint by those who are ultimately acquitted is the length of time they are held while the various steps in the process allowing them to appeal are taken. Is there anything that he and his colleagues can do to try to make sure that if an appeal is put in it goes to the front of the queue and that the period for the intervening stages before it can be reduced, possibly by half?

The Solicitor-General : The Lord Chancellor keeps the state of business in the court under constant review and the court itself tries to put cases where the sentences are shorter, and therefore there is a risk of a person serving the sentence before an appeal against conviction can be heard, to the front of the queue and so to order its affairs that cases do not result in injustice.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

Development Assistance

37. Mr. Cyril D. Townsend : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions the Minister for Overseas Development has had with her German opposite number on development assistance.

The Minister for Overseas Development (Mrs. Lynda Chalker) : I met the German Minister for Co-operation, Herr Spranger, at the Anglo-German summit on 11 March. We reached agreement on a wide range of current development issues. I hope to see him early in May. In the meantime, we are in touch by telephone.

Mr. Townsend : Can my right hon. Friend confirm that Germany's criteria for the provision of such assistance are very similar to our own? In her recent discussions with her German opposite number, did she raise the matter of how Germany could best help to solve the vast problem of Kurdish relief, bearing in mind that that country will not be sending any military personnel into the region?

Mrs. Chalker : The answer to my hon. Friend's first question is yes. Obviously, the answer to his second will be embodied in my statement. At this stage, I would say simply that while the Germans may not have a presence in the region, they are contributing to the relief of suffering there.

Mr. Canavan : In view of the need for more international effort to provide appropriate assistance to Kurdish refugees, can the Minister explain to her German counterpart and, indeed, to this House what on earth possessed her to hand out chocolates to starving Kurdish children? Does not such a patronising gesture indicate a degree of insensitivity almost akin to Marie-Antoinette's infamous statement, "Let them eat cake."?

Mrs. Chalker : In a few moments, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, we shall come to a statement on this issue. In the meantime, let me say to the hon. Gentleman simply

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that a large number of things were donated for me to take to the children. It would have been wrong to keep those things. What ought I to have done? Should I have prevented those children from having a little joy? How can the hon. Gentleman be so mean?

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : I congratulate my right hon. Friend on her reply to the last supplementary question. Can she tell me what progress is being made to persuade Germany and other developed countries to implement the Jamaica conditions, which were put forward by the Prime Minister with a view to reducing the indebtedness of developing countries?

Mrs. Chalker : At the Commonwealth Finance Minister's meeting last September, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister put forward what are now known not as the Jamaica conditions but as the Trinidad conditions. Last week I discussed these with the IMF and the World bank. We are hopeful that debt relief provisions--that is to say, easier terms for heavily indebted countries--will be agreed later this summer. We are working with our partners on the issue, and the Germans are particularly supportive of what we are doing.

Mrs. Clwyd : Did the Minister discuss with her German counterpart the enormous famine facing Africa, with the threat of starvation hanging over 29 million people? What action have the Government decided to take?

Mrs. Chalker : I did indeed speak with my German counterpart about the tragic situation to which the hon. Lady has referred. As she has rightly said, up to 29 million people are affected. I asked the Germans to provide more assistance and to help me to make sure that European Community aid was more speedily delivered to the region, particularly the Horn of Africa. They have agreed to do so, and in my next talks with them I hope to hear more evidence of the movement that has taken place over the past six weeks. I know that the Germans are committed to taking action, their earlier problems having gone away.

South Africa

38. Mr. Butler : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has to increase aid to South Africa consequent upon the dismantling of apartheid.

Mrs. Chalker : Our bilateral aid programme for black South Africans has grown rapidly in recent years to around £8 million in 1990-91. On present plans, it will rise steadily to over £10 million in 1992-93. We shall continue to play a constructive role in the development of a post- apartheid South Africa.

Mr. Butler : My right hon. Friend will be aware that the system of apartheid blighted the educational and entrepreneurial opportunities of the blacks. Will British aid be directed to those two areas?

Mrs. Chalker : Indeed it will. In fact, this morning I met President de Klerk, and one of the matters that we discussed was how to secure the return of entrepreneurial growth that will stimulate the creation of jobs. In our programme, there is major emphasis on education and community development. By helping black South Africans to secure better education, we fit them for the jobs that we

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hope will come through the growth that will be achieved once South Africa is fully accepted back into the international financial community.

Mr. Hain : Does not the Minister accept that it is highly premature to talk of increasing aid while township violence increases, while black people in South Africa still do not have the vote, and while political prisoners still fill the prisons? Will she remind President de Klerk that until there is an end to the township violence, which in the past five years has claimed more victims than the number of South African soldiers killed in the second world war, he should not be wining and dining in the capital of the United Kingdom?

Mrs. Chalker : As a matter of fact, 400 political prisoners have been released since February 1990, and more will be released in the coming weeks. The President of South Africa has plans to deal with township violence--but not by putting more people in custody. The South African Government want to reduce violence by action within the communities and a great deal of work is being undertaken to that end. There is a firm determination among members of that Government to proceed with finalising legislation to get rid of apartheid. When they have done that, I am sure that South Africa will gradually become a better place.

European Bank for Reconstruction and Development

39. Mr. Carrington : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the inauguration of the European bank for reconstruction and development.

Mrs. Chalker : The European bank for reconstruction and development was formally inaugurated in London on 15 April by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and President Mitterrand. That was an historic occasion, which symbolised the coming together of east and west, and gave the new bank the necessary authority to start operations to support economic reform in central and eastern Europe.

Mr. Carrington : The establishment of that bank in London is greatly welcomed, as it consolidates London's position as the financial centre of Europe. The European bank for reconstruction and development has a primary role to play in consolidating the new-found freedoms of east European countries. What support are the British Government giving to it?

Mrs. Chalker : The United Kingdom's subscription to the capital base is £36.5 million over five years. The total subscribed capital is 10 billion ecu.

Dr. Kim Howells : Is the Minister aware of the enormous cost of dealing with just one problem in eastern Europe--that of cleaning up pollution? Does she agree that the sums mentioned are totally inadequate? As Britain is part of the same continent, what will the British Government do to help?

Mrs. Chalker : I sympathise with the hon. Gentleman's observations, because central and eastern Europe's pollution problems are horrendous. We are devoting our know-how funds in eastern Europe to providing that know- how to which the Government in each country give priority. I am certain that they will include some

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environmental projects. Those Governments will be seeking environmental projects such as those that might be funded by the bank, to solve some of their pollution problems. We must ensure that those problems do not get worse, and that the clean-up starts as soon as possible.

Human Rights

40. Mr. Andrew Mitchell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will ensure that the payment of aid funds by Her Majesty's Government to third world countries takes full account of the recipient's record on human rights.

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Mrs. Chalker : Human rights is one of a number of important factors that we take fully into account in deciding aid allocations.

Mr. Mitchell : Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, with the exception of some humanitarian aid to refugees on the Thai-Burmese border, there will be no resumption of any aid to the Government of Burma until they respect the elections that were held last May in which the Opposition won 85 per cent. of the vote, release the Opposition's de facto leader who is still under house arrest, and un-ban the democratic parties that they have tried to suppress?

Mrs. Chalker : I entirely agree with my hon. Friend.

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