House of Commons Hansard Debates for 17 Apr 1991

Local Government Finance

10. Mr. Wray : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is now the average cost of collecting the poll tax in Scotland including extra expenses for new staff needed and for the processing of rebate applications.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Allan Stewart) : Overall, Scottish local authorities have budgeted to spen£43 million on the collection of the community charge this year.

Mr. Wray : Does the Minister agree that this has been the most disastrous and costly piece of legislation this

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century? Can he explain why the Minister of State and the Secretary of State for Scotland let the people of Scotland down so badly by failing to ask the Cabinet and the Secretary of State for the Environment to abolish the 20 per cent. rule? Why did he not raise, on behalf of the Scottish people, the fact that we were a year ahead of England? Why did he not ask for a £280 refund? Why did we have to pay £140 more?

Mr. Stewart : I must point out to the hon. Gentleman that we abolished rates in Scotland a year ahead of England. I refer the hon. Gentleman to the speech that I made during the debate on the 20 per cent. rule. I assure both the hon. Gentleman and the House that local authorities will be fully reimbursed for the cost of administering the additional assistance to charge payers that was announced by the Government.

Mr. Home Robertson : Will the Minister confirm that the cost of granting 100 per cent. poll tax relief to the poorest people in Scotland would be just £30 million? In all the circumstances with which we are familiar in our constituencies, how on earth can he justify the on-going campaign of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to retain this tax on poverty in Scotland?

Mr. Stewart : The cost of collecting the community charge is about three quarters of 1 per cent. of total expenditure. If the hon. Gentleman is implying that local authorities should concentrate as a priority on pursuing those who are able to pay the full personal community charge but who are not doing so, I agree with him.

Mr. Dewar : The Minister referred us to his previous speech on the 20 per cent. rule. As he was a diehard supporter of the unjust principle that everyone, irrespective of means, including students and those on income support, should pay something towards local taxation, are we to take it from his remarks that the Government intend to stand by the 20 per cent. rule and that the new system to be announced will contain no reprieve? The Minister is known as the truest of blue supporters of the poll tax. Can he explain why he is now prepared to endorse a property tax? He will have heard the Secretary of State say a few minutes ago that the reason for the abolition of the poll tax is that it is not working well--yet only four or five months ago the Secretary of State for Scotland described it as a remarkable success story. What in the interim has changed the mind of the hon. Gentleman and his senior colleagues?

Mr. Stewart : The hon. Gentleman recognises, I hope, that he will have to await the consultation paper on the future structure of the new system of local government finance. [ Hon. Members :-- "So will you."] I should point out that collection levels are very variable. To take an example at random--[ Hon. Members :-- "Oh!"] It is from Eastwood district--[ Hon. Members :-- "Ah!"], so perhpaps not chosen wholly at random. The income raised in 1989 from Eastwood district was 103.4 per cent. of estimated income. That perhaps shows the wisdom of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Wray) who asked the main question, in preferring to continue to live in Tory Eastwood rather than in socialist Glasgow with his constituents.

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Labour Statistics

11. Mr. Bill Walker : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give details of the number of people in work in Scotland and north Tayside in May 1979 and at the nearest date in 1991 for which figures are available.

Mr. Allan Stewart : In September 1990, there were 2.25 million people in the Scottish civilian work force in employment. This was 12,000 more than in June 1979. In September 1989, there were 22,600 people in employment in north Tayside--about 1,600 more than in September 1984. These are the earliest and latest dates for which constituency information is available.

Mr. Walker : Does my hon. Friend agree that these figures show very clearly that a Conservative Government and Conservative Members of Parliament are good for Scotland, and certainly good for north Tayside? They show very clearly that the number of people in work is greater today than when I became a Member of Parliament, and those people are all better paid, making nonsense of the claims that people are not better off.

Mr. Stewart : I entirely agree with my hon. Friend's general point and with his particular point about north Tayside. His reference to living standards is correct. The best measure is gross domestic product per head. Throughout Scotland, GDP is at an all-time high, having increased by about 30 per cent. in the past decade. That shows beyond any doubt the benefits that the people of Scotland have derived from Conservative government.

Mr. Ernie Ross : The Minister is being rather selective. He will know, for instance, that the whole of Tayside has been shocked by the most recent job losses, which are a direct result of decisions made by his Government. I refer, for example, to the decision to instruct health boards to consider privatising some of their services. That was compounded by a decision of a sub-committee of the full health board, by a vote of three to two. The people who voted to make 380 people redundant were the chairman, who was appointed by the Secretary of State for Scotland, and two self- nominated members of the Conservative party, one of whom has a relative on the Government side of the House.

Mr. Stewart : I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was referring to one of my relatives--or, indeed which one as there are a very large number of them.

Contracting out has saved the health service hundreds of thousands of pounds, and the money saved is going into patient care, where is belongs. When talking about what has been lost to Tayside, the hon. Gentleman might have taken the opportunity to express regret at the way in which the big Ford investment was thrown away by the trade union movement.

Strathclyde Police

12. Mr. Michael J. Martin : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the present number of police officers currently serving in Strathclyde.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : As at 31 December 1990, 6,804 officers were serving in Strathclyde police. This includes nine officers on secondment, 22 on central service, and 37 serving with the Scottish crime squad.

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Mr. Martin : I thank the Minister for his reply. He will know that the chief constable of Strathclyde, Sir Andrew Sloan, complained in his most recent report that he was 210 police officers below strength, despite the fact that other forces throughout the United Kingdom had increased their numbers. The chief constable is alarmed that in some cases he will not be able to answer calls at peak times. Surely a Minister representing the party of law and order should do something about that.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for highlighting the matter. It is clear that Strathclyde regional council will not allocate sufficient funds to maintain the required establishment. Currently the force is 150 below strength. The Scottish Office, having approved the higher level, has properly budgeted for its share of the cost, so the problem lies wholly at the door of Strathclyde regional council. We have increased our payment from 50 to 51 per cent. The regional council's decision is extraordinary in view of the fact that theft and house-breaking have increased, as have drugs-related offences involving supply as well as those involving possession. I very much hope that the council will consider the matter again with a view to adopting a stronger law and order policy.

Mr. David Marshall : Will the Minister confirm that in many parts of Strathclyde only a handful of police officers are available in the evenings and at weekends to combat the activities of criminals? Is not that a charter for criminals? It is surely wrong for the Minister to lay the blame at the door of Strathclyde regional council in view of all the cuts that the council has suffered as a result of Government policies. Will the Minister give the council sufficient resources to enable it to do all that it can to combat crime?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : We have paid our share of the cost in grant and we have increased the grant from 50 to 51 per cent., as I mentioned. The responsibility lies firmly at the door of Strathclyde regional council. I hope that it will take seriously into account what the hon. Gentleman has said, bearing in mind that it is the only regional council in Scotland so far below the required establishment of police officers to do the job properly.

Mentally Handicapped People

13. Dr. Godman : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he next intends to meet the chairmen of the local enterprise companies in order to discuss the number of people suffering from mental handicaps who require training places and the number of employment training places available to such people in 1991-92.

Mr. Allan Stewart : Discussions with the chairmen of local enterprise companies about operational issues of the kind to which the hon. Gentleman refers are matters for Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise. I am satisfied that the training resources available to Scottish Enterprise and the local enterprise companies are sufficient to cater for the employment training aim and guarantee groups. Those groups include mentally handicapped people.

Dr. Godman : Is there not one Scottish Office Minister or official with an abiding commitment to the needs of those fellow citizens who suffer from mental handicap of

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one kind or another? Surely the local enterprise companies should be told by the Minister and his officials that they have a responsibility to such citizens. Would it not be an honourable course of action for the LECs to ensure that two or three of every 10 training places go to people with mental handicaps? Why should such people always be at the end of the queue for training and employment?

Mr. Stewart : I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's concern, but he is not up to date with the position. Last year employment training starts for people with disabilities, including the mentally handicapped,represented 6.2 per cent. of the total. This year from 1 April for the first time the disabled, including the mentally handicapped, will be part of the aim group for employment training, which effectively ensures them places in employment training. Indeed, we have relaxed the normal unemployment eligibility requirement. In effect, therefore, eligibility will depend on an individual's fitness for employment once trained and not on resources.

Mr. Worthington : Given the Minister's assurances, why are 500 handicapped people who previously received a service from the Scottish Society for the Mentally Handicapped no longer receiving that service after the employment training changes? Why has the Scottish Association for Mental Health had a cut of 140 places, and why are four or five centres to close? If there is genuinely a guarantee to the aim and guarantee group, which includes the handicapped, why has Lothian Enterprise given an instruction to all training managers that no more handicapped people or others in that group are to be taken on until further notice?

Mr. Stewart : May I reassure the hon. Gentleman completely that the mentally handicapped are part of the disabled category and part of the aim group? Therefore, their eligibility depends on fitness for employment once trained and not on resources. However, I should say that the purpose of employment training is to provide training directly ; it is not to provide rehabilitation, which is a social work function. As to the Scottish Association for Mental Health, I launched Tayside Enterprise earlier this week. I asked about places for the SAMH and was told that it had contracted for 2,024 training weeks in 1991 and that the figure for 1991-92 is 2,600 weeks. That is not a cut--it is an increase.

Training

14. Mr. Watson : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what will be the effect of the reduction in Government funding to local enterprise companies compared with their bids on the number of training places they are able to provide in the next financial year.

Mr. Lang : There is no uniform link between the funds available to local enterprise companies and the number of training places that they are able to provide. The maximum number of training places that could be provided by each local enterprise company will be significantly influenced by the use that they make of the increased flexibilities available to them and the unit costs that they negotiate.

Mr. Watson : The increased flexibilities of which the Secretary of State talks are certainly not matched by increased funding. If Scottish Enterprise had been funded

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at the level promised by the former Secretary of State when it was first mooted, it would have approximately £150 million extra available for local enterprise companies. That money could be spent on much needed training schemes, which are now having to be cut. What would the Secretary of State say to my constituents-- trainees as well as trainers--whose training schemes were cut at the end of last month because of the underfunding of the Glasgow Development Agency?

Mr. Lang : The hon. Gentleman underrates the substantial sums now being invested in training in Scotland. The budget for youth training in the forthcoming year is £103 million and the budget for employment training is £115 million. Those sums are substantial. When one compares them with the small sums invested in training by the last Labour Govermment--about six times as much investment is now being made in training--it is clear that the Opposition have a lot to learn from the Conservative Government.

Sir Hector Monro : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the £429 million allocated to Scottish Enterprise, plus the £15 million for the Training Agency, should enable most trainers and trainees to enjoy good facilities in the coming year? Does my right hon. Friend know whether there will be a drop in the number of people receiving training in the coming year?

Mr. Lang : My hon. Friend asks a sound question. The total amount of resources going into the Scottish Enterprise training budget and the Highlands and Islands training budget is more than £240 million. Provided that the local enteprise companies use the flexibilities open to them and take maximum advantage of their negotiating position, that money should enable them to provide a substantial number of training places and to meet the guarantees that the Government have given.

National Health Service Trusts

16. Mr. McKelvey : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many applications for health trust status he has received ; and if he will list them.

Mr. Forsyth : At this point formal applications have been received from the south Ayrshire unit and the Royal Scottish national hospital.

Mr. McKelvey : In view of the unsatisfactory answer that the Minister gave to other hon. Members who asked a similar question, and given the fact that the vast majority of well-informed local opinion is opposed to the application, will the Minister give a simple and honest guarantee to the House ? First and foremost, will he undertake an objective consultative process ? Secondly, will he undertake that the results of that process will be looked at fairly and impartially ? Thirdly, if the majority of those involved are not in favour of opting out, will he abandon or reject the request ?

Mr. Forsyth : The answer to the hon. Gentleman's questions is yes, yes and no.

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Fishing

17. Mr. Kennedy : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will assess the prospects for the fishing industry in the north and north- western coastal waters around Scotland ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Lang : The prospects for the fishing industry in the north and north-west depend primarily on the health of fish stocks. The current poor state of the cod and haddock stocks in the North sea and off the west coast of Scotland is of particular concern. The Government therefore regard the conservation of those fishery resources as a major priority if we are to ensure the long-term prosperity of the fishing communities around our coasts.

Mr. Kennedy : The Secretary of State can surely be in no doubt as to the sense of utter chaos and demoralisation in the fishing industry and in the many communities served by and dependent on a healthy and viable fishing industry. Will he now acknowledge that schemes and devices such as the eight-day tie-up and all the problems that that is causing are no substitute for a proper, sensible and comprehensive decommissioning scheme ? That is what the industry wants and it smacks of sense. Why have the Government turned their face against such a sensible development ?

Mr. Lang : I certainly understand the anxiety that exists in the fishing community. I was able to find out more about that when I visited Peterhead recently. However, the industry also recognises the importance of conserving stocks because unless we do so in a responsible and sensible long-term manner there will be nothing left for the fishing community to fish for in the years to come. The hon. Gentleman suggests that decommissioning might be the answer to all our problems, but that would be an extremely expensive scheme and, judging from precedents, there is no evidence to suggest that it would work effectively. It is significant that those countries that have decommissioning schemes also have other means of controlling their fishing efforts.

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EC Directives

18. Mr. Andrew Welsh : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what meetings have taken place between the Scottish Office and the European Commissioner for the Environment on compliance with EC directives.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : The Scottish Office is in contact as necessary with the Commission over the whole range of environmental issues.

Mr. Welsh : Will the Government provide a supply of clean, wholesome drinking water for the Scottish population? Is not it disgraceful that millions of Scots are daily drinking water which fails to meet the basic minimum European standards for safety regarding materials such as aluminium and lead? Why were the Government willing to throw billions of pounds as a sweetener for water privatisation at one of the smaller English water boards when less than that amount would solve our problems and supply clean drinking water for the whole of Scotland? Why is the Minister discriminating against his own country?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : First, I must point out to the hon. Member that, unlike in England where water restructuring took place in advance of privatisation, that process is not taking place in Scotland, where the water service is in the public sector. We take seriously our determination to do everything possible to comply with the directives. We have increased expenditure on water and sewerage programmes to an all-time high of £620 million. The hon. Gentleman asked about aluminium and lead. As regards aluminium, most supplies will comply by 1994 ; as regards lead, only one of the treatment schemes remains to be completed after this year, and it is programmed for 1992.

As for our record of compliance, only three countries--Denmark, Luxembourg and the Netherlands--are expected to show fewer complaints pending against them. Of some 90 court cases launched by the Commission in the past 10 years, only two have been against the United Kingdom and they have been defended vigorously.

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