| Home Page |
Column 939
House of Commons
Wednesday 27 March 1991
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
Tay Road Bridge Order Confirmation Bill
Considered ; to be read the Third time .
Oral Answers to Questions
ENVIRONMENT
Litter
1. Mr. Colin Shepherd : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his assessment of progress in respect of the litter problem under the provisions of the Environmental Protection Act 1990.
The Minister for the Environment and Countryside (Mr. David Trippier) : I am in no doubt that the litter provisions of the Environmental Protection Act 1990, which represent the most comprehensive package of measures ever introduced by any British Government to deal with the problem of litter, will lead to a visible improvement in the standard of cleanliness of our streets and open spaces. We will monitor the effectiveness of the legislation when it is all in place, which should be in about three months' time. I welcome the Tidy Britain Group's initiative to hold a national spring clean from 19 to 28 April.
Mr. Shepherd : I welcome warmly the initiative that my hon. Friend mentioned and I appreciate that money has been made available to the Tidy Britain Group to help the national spring clean week. May it go well. Does my hon. Friend share my disappointment that, despite the powers provided under the Environmental Protection Act 1990, we still have a profusion of supermarket trolleys littering residential areas, town centres and car parks? Will he knock some heads together among local authorities and supermarket operators so that we get sensible mechanisms for controlling this wretched nuisance?
Mr. Trippier : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the further commercial that he has given to national spring clean week. I am anxious that everyone should play a part in helping us not only to clean up the country, but to ensure that it is kept clean. On his second point, the wanderlust of shopping trolleys is a feature of British life which has concerned me for a long time. We had lengthy debates during the Committee stage of the Environmental Protection Bill and I sought to have it included in the Act. Section 99 allows local authorities to collect, store and dispose of abandoned shopping trolleys. As a result of that initiative and now that the law is in place, I am comforted
Column 940
to see that more and more supermarkets are introducing new and ingenious technology to stop the trolleys wandering out of the perimeters of the land owned by the supermarket, although in recent months many of us have seen them end up in streams, waterways and motorways, though not in the fast lane. I am glad to say that the problem is slowly diminishing.Mr. Win Griffiths : We welcome the Tidy Britain Group week and hope that it will be a success. Will the Government admit that their 23-page code of practice, which introduces 11 category zones with three different types of road category, is a bureaucractic nightmare, made much worse for local authorities by desperate underfunding of all the provisions? The Government allowed about £50 million, but the metropolitan authorities alone reckon that they need £60 million to carry out their duties. Is not this another case of the Government setting desirable objectives, but failing lamentably in administration and finance to carry them out?
Mr. Trippier : No, it is not. The hon. Gentleman is obviously anxious to support the Tidy Britain Group's initiative of a national spring clean week and I welcome that. I remind him and the House that the code of practice, which has statutory backing, was put together not only by the Tidy Britain Group but by the local authority associations. Therefore, they had a hand in ensuring that the code was not a bureaucratic nightmare. The standards that I accept and for which I do not apologise are extremely high and can be met. On the hon. Gentleman's final point, it may be fairer for me to take the political sting out of the argument by comparing two Labour authorities in the north--Leeds, which is remarkably clean, and Manchester, whence I come, which is filthy. The question that the hon. Gentleman should address is how Leeds manages to keep its city clean while Manchester does not. As from next week, when the litter laws will bite, I can assure him that Manchester city will be more often in the dock than out.
Mr. Speaker : May I ask for briefer answers as they seem to be taking a long time.
Land Registers
2. Mr. Summerson : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has to consult the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors about the amount of public vacant and derelict land currently listed in the land registers.
The Minister for Housing and Planning (Sir George Young) : I am considering the RICS response to my Department's recent consultation paper as part of the Government's review of policy relating to vacant public land.
Analysis of land use changes has shown that in the past few years 45 per cent. of all land developed for new housing has been vacant or recycled land in urban areas, and in the south-east the proportion is even higher : 57 per cent. in 1988. We must continue to see that the potential of vacant land in our cities is properly used, to help meet housing need and to stop the unnecessary use of green-field sites.
Column 941
My officials are currently looking in detail at the Secretary of State's register for London and the south-east to see what potential the sites on it may have for housing use.Mr. Summerson : My hon. Friend will be aware that much of the impetus in tackling difficult sites comes from a partnership between the private and public sectors. When he next consults the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors will he take a fresh look at the proliferation of Government regulations that are threatening to inhibit the setting up of such partnerships? On that occasion, will he stress the utility of derelict land grant for realising the potential of difficult sites, even in districts of high land value?
Sir George Young : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his two suggestions. Yes, we shall look at any bureaucratic problems that are in the way of the derelict land grant. The city action teams and task forces that operate in many of the districts involved are there precisely to overcome such problems. On my hon. Friend's second question, £88 million of derelict land grant will be available next year--a useful 20 per cent. increase on the amount available this year.
Mr. Nellist : Just before Christmas the Land Registry opened its records to anyone who wants to inquire about ownership of land or property, subject to a small fee. Does not the Minister think, therefore, that it would be a good idea for his Department to encourage councils and provide the finance to assist them to approach the Land Registry to find out about derelict or unoccupied land or houses so that the hundreds, if not thousands, of houses in every town and city could be taken over by councils and used to ease the housing shortage?
Sir George Young : As the private Member who introduced the Bill on opening up access to the Land Registry, I am grateful for the support that I had from the Opposition. Before the local authorities use the Land Registry for the purpose described by the hon. Member for Coventry, South- East (Mr. Nellist), perhaps they should look at the empty properties already in their ownership. They should bring them back into use before persecuting people in the private sector.
Mr. Steen : As the economy is picking up, it is clear that more housing will be needed and will be built on land throughout Britain. Does my hon. Friend agree that as there are still 88,000 acres of vacant, derelict, dormant and underused land on the Land Registry, the Government should introduce some private sector involvement to get rid of that land? They should direct developers to develop on that derelict and vacant land before building on green-field sites, particularly in the south and south- east where there is great pressure to destroy more and more of our green and pleasant countryside.
Sir George Young : It is precisely for that reason that I have asked my officials to look specifically at land on the Land Registry in London and the south-east that might be used for housing to see whether we can make faster progress in meeting some of the housing demand in the south- east without impinging on the green fields to which my hon. Friend the Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) rightly gave priority.
Column 942
Community Charge
3. Mr. Haynes : To ask the Secretary State for the Environment if he will introduce legislation to abolish the community charge by April 1992 ; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Michael Heseltine) : I announced on 21 March the Government's intention to replace the community charge by a new local tax with two essential elements--the number of adults in a household and the value of the property--and that we shall consult on the basis that the new tax could be in place in 1993-94.
Mr. Haynes : Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have a Secretary of State who is dithering like the Prime Minister. I remember when he wrote on the back of that envelope about his objectives, but he has dithered and jithered and he has not got there. What I want to tell the Secretary of Stateis--
Mr. Speaker : Order. Ask him a question, please.
Mr. Haynes : Is the Secretary of State aware--I will tell him this-- that if he does not achieve his objective we shall do it after the next election?
Mr. Heseltine : There is no need for the Opposition to wait that long--they can join us in consulting and help to take the matter forward now.
Miss Emma Nicholson : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the labyrinthine proposals put forward by the Labour party in place of the community charge make his own look clear and simple, and that the Opposition's proposals would destroy the privacy and freedom of the individual with a mesh of state control?
Mr. Heseltine : My hon. Friend makes important points which I dare say will be amplified as the House moves to later business. However, she will be encouraged to know that the chairmen of the Association of County Councils and the Association of District Councils have today come out strongly in support of my announcement last week.
Mr. Gould : Is the Secretary of State aware that speculation is reaching fever pitch about some of the fundamental aspects of his two-tax proposal? For instance, is the poll tax element to be a flat rate tax, is the property element to be based on capital values, and what is the balance to be struck between the two? I know that in the current state of confusion and disarray it is difficult for the Secretary of State to offer answers to those simple questions, but may I offer him the possibility of giving us his best answer on any one of them of his own choice?
Mr. Heseltine : I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's curiosity. I shall have to ask him to wait for two weeks, but he has kept the country waiting for 10 years.
Competitive Tendering
4. Mr. Butler : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what action he has taken with regard to councils which award contracts to their direct service organisations tendering significantly in excess of tenders from outside private contractors.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Robert Key) : Under the Local
Column 943
Government Act 1988, the Secretary of State has sanction powers which he may use if he considers that an authority has failed to comply with the statutory requirements for competitive tendering, including the requirement to avoid anti-competitive behaviour. We have used those sanction powers in the case of 22 local authorities, including some which, in our opinion, have rejected lower-priced external tenders without sound reasons.Mr. Butler : Is not it disgraceful that a Labour council such as Warrington should award its refuse contract to its direct services organisation despite the fact that its tender was £100,000 in excess of a private tender, and that a Labour council in Halton should award its refuse contract to its direct services organisation despite the fact that its tender was £175,000 above the outside tender? Is not that financial incompetence ripping off the poll tax payer?
Mr. Key : Yes, it is. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the diligence that he has shown on behalf of his constituents. My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State, Lady Blatch, has recently considered the case and agreed that the Department of the Environment should send an official letter to Warrington council saying that the Secretary of State considers that its decision was anti-competitive and that he is minded to use the sanction powers after 1 August 1991.
Council House Rents
5. Mr. O'Hara : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will extend to Knowsley borough council the same assistance as he has given to the London borough of Ealing to keep down the level of increase of council house rents.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Tim Yeo) : Any application from Knowsley borough council or from anyother authority for a special determination of subsidy would be considered on its own merits.
Mr. O'Hara : Does the Minister agree that the housing subsidy system is ridiculously complex and in a mess, and that the Government's attempts to bring council rents into line with market values have failed dismally, so that in the case of a borough such as Knowsley, which has significantly high rents and a high take-up of housing benefit, the inclusion of the cost of benefits in the calculation for housing subsidy has the effect of increasing those rents?
Mr. Yeo : On the contrary, the housing subsidy system is extraordinarily simple and any difficulties that arise in Knowsley have nothing to do with the Government and everything to do with the incompetence of Knowsley borough council, whose record of housing mismanagement is bad even by the appalling standards of Labour-controlled authorities. On 1 April last year, more than 5 per cent. of Knowsley's housing stock was empty--the seventh worst performance out of 366 housing authorities. Its record of collecting rents was not much better. Last year it was the 28th worst authority out of the 366. Filling those voids and collecting those rents would help its housing revenue account. Instead of criticising the Government, the hon. Gentleman should advise his
Column 944
constituents to vote for a Conservative council on 2 May so that it can start cleaning up the mess, just as the newly elected Ealing Conservative council did last May.Mrs. Currie : My hon. Friend has put his finger on the answer. Is not the way to keep down the level of rents to make a determined effort to collect them in the first place?
Mr. Yeo : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Following our introduction of a ring-fenced housing revenue account last April, there is an enormous incentive for authorities to be efficient. I am glad to say that the vast majority of Conservative councils are responding extremely well.
Mr. George Howarth : I think that the Minister should be aware that many of his successors in that job, of which there have indeed been many, met Knowsley workers and are well aware that, by agreement with the Department, the number of voids are high because they are being held for improvement. Without throwing any bricks at the Minister for Housing and Planning, the hon. Member for Ealing, Acton (Sir G. Young), if every authority in the country, irrespective of political control, had been subject to the same arrangements as the Conservative-controlled borough of Ealing, the level of increase in council house rents would have been far smaller throughout the country. The Minister cannot evade that fact. The Government are being highly selective about whom they help and whom they do not help. It will not buy them any votes--certainly not in Knowsley, or in Ealing.
Mr. Yeo : I should explain to the House that my hon. Friend the Minister played no part in discussions held in the Department regarding Ealing borough council--discussions which, incidentally, led to our refusal of Ealing's request for additional subsidy. Ealing faced the problem of inheriting exceptionally difficult conditions from the Labour council in May last year--a projected housing revenue account deficit of £25 million. Even after we allowed the council to bring forward £5 million from 1992-93 into 1991-92--money which will have to be repaid in the following year--its rent increase exceeds the guideline rent increase by more than any other local authority in the country.
Mr. John Marshall : As a former Ealing councillor, may I ask whether my hon. Friend finds it strange that the Labour Front Bench wants the increase to be even greater ?
Mr. Yeo : My hon. Friend is perfectly right. If it were not for how highly we value his services in this place, I dare say that he would still be doing a valuable job on Ealing borough council.
Irreversible Development
6. Mr. McAvoy : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will consider bringing forward proposals to make irreversible development, carried out without planning consent, a criminal offence.
Sir George Young : My right hon. Friend considers that the concept of irreversible development, carried out unlawfully, is an unsatisfactory basis for a criminal offence.
Mr. McAvoy : Surely the Minister accepts that this issue concerns both sides of the House, not least his hon. Friend
Column 945
the Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) ? Does he accept that in the case of opencast mining, where the effects are disastrous it should be regarded as a criminal offence ?Sir George Young : Opencast mining is not irreversible. It is relatively easy to infill and make good an area after opencast mining. The hon. Member has not chosen a very good example. We debated the matter at length on an amendment in Standing Committee and at the end of the debate on the amendment, it was withdrawn without a Division.
Mr. Ground : Is it right that planning policy and the expediency of enforcing planning controls have hitherto been matters for local authorities and the Secretary of State, and not for the criminal courts ? Do the Government wish to keep it that way ?
Sir George Young : My hon. and learned Friend puts the case very well. Those who are concerned with implementing planning legislation--the local government planning Bar and all the authorities concerned apart from district planning officers--agree with my hon. and learned Friend that criminalisation of planning matters is not the best way forward.
House Repossessions
7. Mr. McMaster : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he has any plans to meet the chairman of the Building Societies Association to discuss the level of house repossessions.
Sir George Young : I have already discussed with the Building Societies Association and the Council of Mortgage Lenders ways in which repossession can be avoided, and will be meeting the CML again tomorrow. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will also be meeting the CML.
Mr. McMaster : When the Minister next meets the chairman of the Building Societies Association, will he apologise to him and, more importantly, to the millions who are struggling to pay their mortgages as a result of his policy of high interest rates and mortgage misery? What does he intend to do to help the people whom he encouraged to buy their homes, and who are now struggling to pay their mortgages? How will he help those whose homes are being repossessed? What will he do to help those whom he set up and whom he has now knocked down?
Sir George Young : I am sure that all the people to whom the hon. Gentleman has referred will welcome the fall in interest rates, which will reduce the pressure on budgets. We should keep the matter in perspective-- 98.7 per cent. of those with mortgages are not six months or more behind with their payments.
Mr. Hawkins : How would the Government react to building societies' participating in schemes to recycle repossessed properties into the private rented sector, making them available for letting to priority groups?
Sir George Young : The Government would welcome any such initiative by building societies. I understand that one or two are considering taking such properties into their ownership and then putting them out to rent, perhaps to those in need.
Column 946
Mr. Soley : I do not think that the Minister intended to mislead the House, but the drop in interest rates will make no difference to most mortgage payers, as the Halifax building society itself pointed out recently.
Mortgage repossession is the fastest-growing cause of homelessness in families. Will the Minister join me in pursuing an option advanced by the Council of Mortgage Lenders, together with certain housing associations and local authorities--the development of a mortgage rescue package designed to stop the dream of home ownership from turning into the nightmare of bed-and -breakfast accommodation paid for by the poll tax payer?
Sir George Young : I think that most mortgage payers would take a slightly different view of the fall in interest rates from that advocated by the hon. Gentleman. His point about homelessness should also be seen in perspective : repossessions account for about 10 per cent. of homelessness- -they are not a significant factor.
As I have said, I will be meeting the Council of Mortgage Lenders tomorrow, and talking through with it some of its proposals to help families to avoid going into bed-and-breakfast accommodation after their homes have been repossessed.
Mr. Latham : I have been a vice-president of the Building Societies Association for 10 years. When my hon. Friend meets the societies tomorrow, will he point out that some of them have been rather slow in bringing down their interest rates following the fall in wider interest rates? Is it not time that some of them responded rather more quickly to the needs of their mortgage payers?
Sir George Young : I shall take a copy of today's Hansard to the meeting and show the societies my hon. Friend's question.
BISF Houses
8. Mr. Murphy : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he has any new proposals to assist BISF home owners.
Mr. Murphy : I thank the Minister for that useful reply. Does the Minister agree that there is widespread concern on both sides of the House about BISF and other defective housing, and the problems that it causes both for home owners and for those who rent? Does he agree that local authorities' maintenance budgets cannot cope with those problems, and will he assure the House that he will undertake a fresh examination of the designation of special defective houses?
Mr. Yeo : I am afraid that I shall not do that. It is clear to us from the information now available that no case exists for designating BISF houses under the housing defects legislation. Any owner of a BISF house-- or, indeed, any other house that is in poor condition--can apply for a mandatory renovation grant to bring his property up to standard, which may cover 100 per cent. of the cost. I do not think that any further reaction from the Government is called for.
Column 947
Local Government Finance
9. Mr. Winnick : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a further statement on the Government's position on the poll tax.
Mr. Heseltine : My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced in his Budget a new grant to reduce community charges by £140 in 1991-92. I announced on 21 March that the community charge would be replaced at the earliest opportunity by a new local tax.
Mr. Winnick : Leaving aside last night's debate, is the Secretary of State at all disappointed that surveys and polls have shown that the public --including members of the Conservative party--are no more enthusiastic about his proposed two-tax scheme, incorporating "son of poll tax", than they are about the existing poll tax scheme? As there seem to be as many proposals from the Conservative Benches for replacing the poll tax as there are Tory Members, why does the Secretary of State not admit frankly that the Tory party is hopelessly split on the issue and does not have a clue how to proceed?
Mr. Heseltine : The one very clear message in the opinion polls is that the party to which I belong is eight points up on where it was three months ago. No wonder the Labour party is so worried.
Mr. Fry : When my right hon. Friend introduces the new tax, will he abandon the very expensive register that has been such a heavy cost on local authorities, ignore the protests of the Labour party and have the courage to use the electoral register, setting it against the number of adults in a house?
Mr. Heseltine : I must ask my hon. Friend to allow the consultation paper, which will cover these matters, to be published in the early part of April. Then we shall be able to examine both this and a number of other matters.
Mr. Simon Hughes : If and when the Secretary of State abolishes the poll tax and replaces it with his twin tax, what assurances will he be able to give to some of my constituents who live in a high-rated and high-value property in central London? The several adults who live in that property are either not earning or have minimal incomes. Will the new system be securely based on that household's ability to pay, not on other artificial criteria relating to property and the number of people, irrespective of income?
Mr. Heseltine : The hon. Gentleman is wrong not to remember that we have announced clearly that the community charge will end by 1993 and that we shall replace it not with two taxes but with one. On his specific question, he can be very sure that we shall have those matters in mind.
Humberside
10. Mr. Michael Brown : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to receive the final report from the Local Government Boundary Commission regarding the future of the county of Humberside.
The Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities (Mr. Michael Portillo) : I hope to receive the final report later this summer
Column 948
Mr. Brown : If, when my hon. Friend receives that report, it should confirm the draft proposals that were announced last November to abolish the county of Humberside and at least transfer my constituency into the county of Lincolnshire, what will he do? If it says that Humberside county council should be kept, what will he do about that recommendation? Can he assure my constituents that, whatever happens, as a result of the statement made last Thursday by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, the sentence of death has been pronounced on the county of Humberside?
Mr. Portillo : My hon. Friend tempts me to say things that would be very premature. Moreover, he has asked a series of leading hypothetical questions. I should like the Local Government Boundary Commission to publish its final report as soon as possible so that I can consider it as soon as possible.
Mr. Morley : Does the Minister accept that what counts with many people in Humberside is the very high quality of the services provided by Humberside county council? Does he further accept that the original decision to review Humberside was political, since it was announced just before the Conservative local government conference? However, it gave them no political advantage, cost a great deal of money and caused much uncertainty. As there is now to be a national review, should not the local review be stopped so that an overall approach can be adopted? Surely that would be better than picking on one local authority.
Mr. Portillo : Of course, I reject the idea that the origins of the inquiry were in any way political. It is perfectly clear to anyone who knows the area that the issue needs to be considered and that there have been strong expressions of public opinion on the matter. After all the work that has been done, it is important that the final report should be published so that my right hon. Friend and I can consider it.
Mr. Batiste : Is my hon. Friend aware that the Humberside report of the Local Government Boundary Commission is just one of several reports that are outstanding covering the Yorkshire area and other parts of the country? Given the announcement a few weeks ago that the Parliamentary Boundary Commission is about to start its next project, will my hon. Friend ensure that these local government reports are brought to a conclusion as quickly as possible?
Mr. Portillo : That is desirable as a general principle. I do not believe that anything that my right hon. Friend has announced should inhibit the Local Government Boundary Commission in proceeding with its work speedily.
Natural Environment (Eastern Europe)
11. Sir David Steel : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what assistance his Department is giving to east European nations' efforts to improve their natural environment.
Mr. Trippier : My Department has provided advice and assistance to the Polish and Czech Environment Ministers and to officials from these and other east European countries during recent visits to the United Kingdom ; we
Column 949
have set up a new division with specific responsibility for environmental protection issues in Europe and have just completed a fact-finding mission to Poland ; we are also working closely with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on a number of projects for Poland and the Czech and Slovak Federal Republic, funded by the know-how fund ; and we are contributing to the International Union for the Conservation of Nature's east European programme.Sir David Steel : What has happened to the register of pollution which the previous Secretary of State promised to the House last May? What steps have the Minister and the Department of Trade and Industry taken to ensure that, in the natural desire for industrial investment, we are not exporting environmentally substandard technology to eastern Europe?
Mr. Trippier : We could not do that and I certainly give the assurance that the right hon. Gentleman seeks on that point. I said in my substantive answer that we had had a number of official visits from some east European countries. I find it interesting and impressive that they choose to come to the United Kingdom to find out how we bring about environmental enhancement, principally through the Environmental Protection Act 1990.
On the right hon. Gentleman's first point, I hope that the register, which will be very elaborate in terms of the European Environmental Agency, will stretch far wider than the European Community and will incorporate central and eastern European countries, which will enable us all to do what we can to help with their problems.
Sir John Stokes : In view of the forthcoming budget deficit, should not the Government consider carefully all overseas aid, however desirable?
Mr. Trippier : What we are talking about on the substantive question is not necessarily supplying overseas aid to help with many projects, but ensuring that countries that need to enhance their environment are aware of the expertise that exists in western Europe. We have considerable expertise and we are happy to make it available to those countries when and if they need it.
Waste (Landfill Sites)
12. Mr. Martyn Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a further statement on his policies to encourage local government to reduce the volume of waste deposited in landfill sites.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Tony Baldry) : Our policies for encouraging waste minimalisation andrecycling will help to reduce the amount of waste going to landfill. In particular, the introduction of recycling credits under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 will provide a market-based financial incentive to recycle domestic waste rather than send it for landfill.
Mr. Jones : I thank the Minister for his answer. Is he aware that if "This Common Inheritance", the huge tome published by a supposedly green Government, is to be little more than a waste of trees, he should be doing more to encourage capital expenditure on incineration and recycling plants which would materially reduce the amount of waste? If all waste were recycled, only 20 per
| Next Section
| Home Page |