House of Commons Hansard Debates for 18 Mar 1991

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

House of Fraser

26. Mr. Teddy Taylor : To ask the Attorney-General what recent representations he has received concerning the implications of the House of Fraser report for the work of the Serious Fraud Office.

The Attorney-General (Sir Patrick Mayhew) : None, Sir.

Mr. Taylor : Will my right hon. and learned Friend consider publishing a simple guide for business men? There is a certain amount of confusion in the business community that the Al-Fayeds, despite having been accused in the House of Fraser report of repeatedly lying,

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deceiving and defrauding, retain a banking licence as well as their positions as company directors. Is not this the kind of injustice that simply will not go away?

The Attorney-General : I greatly sympathise with my hon. Friend in his desire for simple guides. If I were in the business of publishing guides, I should hope, without too much confidence that I could make them simple. The code for Crown prosecutors is the only guide for which I am responsible. That code establishes that before criminal proceedings are brought, there must be a reasonable prospect of a conviction. Criminal proceedings have to be based on evidence that is admissible in criminal courts, as distinct from evidence such as is available to Department of Trade and Industry inspectors. The spectrum for a criminal court is more narrow. As for the Banking Acts, the Bank of England is the regulating authority. There is nothing that I can say about that. With regard to the disqualification of directors, my right hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), when he was Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, decided not to operate the sanctions under section 8 and disqualify. That decision is now the subject of judicial review proceedings and is therefore sub judice.

Anti-Semitic Literature

27. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Attorney-General when he last authorised any prosecution for the publication of anti-Semitic literature.

The Attorney-General : On 23 Febraury I gave my consent to the prosecution of Jane Lady Birdwood for offences under part III of the Public Order Act 1986 relating to the leaflets "The Ultimate Blasphemy", "Jewish Tributes to our Child Martyrs", "The Snides of March" and "Another Blood Libel or Ritual Murder".

Mr. Marshall : Can my right hon. and learned Friend tell the House whether that is the only prosecution for anti-Semitic behaviour that he has brought in recent months? Does he accept that many people look forward to the successful prosecution of such disgraceful hatred and trade in bigotry and racism?

The Attorney-General : I know what a close interest my hon. Friend takes in this matter. In the past I have described that kind of literature as odious and, of course, the whole House agrees with that. In recent months I authorised the prosecution of two other cases. Fourteen cases have been reported to me and are being considered by the police. That probably answers my hon. Friend's question.

Mr. Cohen : Notwithstanding that one proposed prosecution, has the Attorney-General's Department blocked other proposed prosecutions that have been put to him in the past by the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis? Do the proposed prosecution and the right hon. and learned Gentleman's answer suggest a change in his policy and that he will look more favourably on prosecuting those who are guilty of distributing anti- Semitic publications?

The Attorney-General : There is no question of a change in policy. The matter is governed by the code for Crown prosecutors, to which I have already referred. Nor is there any question that any prosecution has been blocked. In

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recent years, no decision not to prosecute has been taken on public interest grounds--such a decision has always been made on the ground of insufficiency of evidence. As for the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, the hon. Gentleman may or may not have seen a letter from Sir John Dellow, the acting commissioner, a few weeks ago in which he said that he knew that all cases referred to the Crown prosecution service were given full and proper consideration and decisions were taken on entirely proper grounds.

Sir John Stokes : Can my right hon. and learned Friend tell me whether there have been any prosecutions for anti-English publications?

The Attorney-General : No, Sir. Because--I do not know whether I should say "because", but I remind my hon. Friend that prosecutions under part III of the Public Order Act 1986 relate to publications which are designed, intended or likely to stir up racial hatred and which are threatening, abusive or insulting in their character.

The Gulf

28. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Attorney-General, pursuant to his oral answer of 25 February, Official Report, column 640, if he will give further consideration to the degree to which the use of napalm on civilian targets conforms to the principle of proportionality outlined in his oral answer of 4 February, Official Report, columns 14-15.

The Attorney-General : My answer of 4 February related to operations in the Gulf. There is no question of napalm having been used against civilians. Napalm was not available to British forces at all. The Americans have stated that napalm was used by their forces only against Iraqi trenches that had been filled with oil.

Mr. Dalyell : In view of the horrendous events that have been unleashed in Kerbala, Basra and other cities, and as someone must have sold those most sophisticated weapons knowing exactly what they were up to, should not more attention be given to the ratification of the relevant protocol?

The Attorney-General : I well understand the hon. Gentleman's anxiety on that score. He will have seen the reply that was given on 14 March by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, in which he said that the Government are considering whether to ratify the convention that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. We have signed it, but it has not yet been ratified. That is as far as the matter can be taken, at any rate by me today.

Mr. Fraser : When the Attorney-General advises on compliance with international obligations in the Gulf, will he have regard to some disturbing reports on BBC Radio 4 this morning and ensure that the Kuwaiti Government and other Governments are reminded of their obligations under the international conventions on refugees and the treatment of prisoners and civilians under the Geneva conventions, and the duty of common humanity which must be owed to people who have been resident peacefully in those countries for many years?

The Attorney-General : I shall certainly ensure that the hon. Gentleman's question is drawn to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and

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Commonwealth Affairs. It is of the highest importance--the Government insisted on this throughout the events that have taken place since August--that international law should be upheld. Kuwait, along with ourselves, Iraq, the United States and many other countries are signatories to the Geneva convention. I understand what is behind the hon. Gentleman's question and I agree that it is very important.

Mr. Ian Bruce : If any individuals, particularly in Iraq, who may be guilty of what appears to be a war crime in using napalm against their own civilian population come within the jurisdiction of British courts, could we take action against them? If the Government cannot take action, have they any plans to bring those people within our jurisdiction?

The Attorney-General : It is a criminal offence, under our legislation, to commit such a "grave breach" of the Geneva convention. As for liability for war crimes, the Security Council has reminded Iraq of its liability. Whether arrangements are made for the prosecution of war crimes does not rest with this country alone but must be decided in consultation with our allies.

Courts (Taxing)

29. Mr. Wigley : To ask the Attorney-General whether a decision has been made on the reorganisation of the taxing function of courts in Wales ; and if he will make a statement.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Nicholas Lyell) : New arrangements common to all six circuits in England and Wales provide that, as from 4 March this year, the very largest claims for costs in criminal cases will be referred to specialist taxing teams with particular expertise in determining such claims. In other respects, the taxing function of the courts, covering the vast majority of cases, remains unchanged.

Mr. Wigley : Is the Solicitor-General aware of the concern felt in Wales that those taxing services may be moved from Cardiff and other centres in Wales to Bristol in the south and Manchester in the north? Will he assure us that, if there is a move in that direction, it will not be seen as the thin end of the wedge, leading to the dismantling of the structure in the Wales and Chester circuit, and that the future is guaranteed?

The Solicitor-General : I am aware of the concern that the hon. Gentleman expresses. I assure him that all that is planned is that those special cases that involve the largest costs and require specialist teams will be dealt with by specialist teams. There is no question of abolishing the Wales and Chester circuit.

City Fraud

30. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Attorney-General what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the mechanism for the prosecution of fraud relating to the City of London ; and if he will make a statement.

The Attorney-General : On 6 March I made an extended visit to the Serious Fraud Office, whose director I frequently meet. The professionalism and commitment among staff of all disciplines and at all levels impressed me greatly. So did the innovative approach adopted by the

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SFO to the use of new technology, both in case management and in court presentation. From the legislation of a Conservative Government, I am glad to say that we now have in place a far more formidable and effective mechanism for the prosecution of serious and complex fraud than anything that our predecessors evidently thought sufficient.

Mr. Skinner : Will the Attorney-General tell us whether that new mechanism will be sufficient to deal with that national organisation near to the City of London and close to the Palace of Westminster, which has been trading under three different names during the past four years? Is he aware that it has been attempting a reverse takeover bid of one major corporation and a Labour co-operative, and that a statement was made at the weekend by a leader of that group who, when he was under pressure, become known as Paddy Backdown?

The Attorney-General : The hon. Gentleman spent a great deal of time memorising that question but he has not made it entirely clear to me. Any matter that is brought before the police or the Serious Fraud Office as meriting investigation will be investigated. If enough evidence is admissible in a criminal court proceeding to give rise to the realistic prospect of a conviction, a prosecution will follow. However, I doubt whether my answer will satisfy the hon. Gentleman--that will depend on many factors that cannot be taken into account by a quasi-judicial authority.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

Famine

31. Mrs. Mahon : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what extra emergency relief is being given to alleviate the famine in Africa, over the amount planned at the beginning of the financial year.

The Minister for Overseas Development (Mrs. Lynda Chalker) : As I explained in a written answer to the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) on 6 February, at columns 146-47, the initial provision for humanitarian assistance made at the beginning of the current financial year was £66.7 million. That provision is now £74 million. No separate allocation is made for Africa.

Mrs. Mahon : Given the scale of the disaster facing the people of sub-Saharan Africa, where 27 million face starvation, was not that a complacent reply, and should not the Minister be trying to initiate a coalition of nations to make that disaster the national emergency that it should be? Could not we start by having a full-scale debate in the House of Commons? The public have responded magnificently this weekend ; cannot the Government do the same?

Mrs. Chalker : Many right hon. and hon. Members--even Opposition Members--recognise that the British Government went out of their way, at a diplomatic level, to encourage all the main donors to do more. Britain alone cannot end the famine in Africa and it is nonsense to suggest otherwise. We have received some helpful responses, but we are continuing the pressure on all the European Community's member states, the United States,

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Canada, Australia and other donors to ensure that not only the British public respond--they did so magnificently through Comic Relief--but that other donors do their bit.

Mr. Wells : In view of my right hon. Friend's great generosity in dealing with the African famine, the refugees caused by the Gulf war and eastern European matters, is not it time, in accordance with the Foreign Affairs Select Committee report on famine in Africa, to ask the Treasury for more money to boost the amount available for overseas aid in the coming year?

Mrs. Chalker : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I expect the humanitarian aid provision for the next financial year at least to match the current financial commitment. Last Thursday I was able to approve further allocations of food aid for Ethiopia. They constituted, last week alone, 6,500 tonnes for the world food programme, worth £1 million, and 1,300 tonnes for Oxfam's programme in the Ogaden, totalling another £1.25 million.

Mrs. Clwyd : The Minister attempts to confuse the House with her selection of figures. Does she remember, when referring to the Ethiopian famine of 1985, saying to the House last December : "We shall certainly at least match what we did that year."--[ Official Report, 19 December 1990, Vol. 183, c. 291.]

That would mean giving £36 million in today's prices--so far the Government have given £27 million since the famine was first talked about in September. When does she intend to honour that pledge? Perhaps she will tell the House today. Why are Oxfam, Save the Children Fund, the Disasters Emergency Committee and many other agencies desperately advertising in the newspapers for more help? When will the Government stop being so miserly and save the millions of people now dying from famine in Africa?

Mrs. Chalker : The hon. Lady seems to believe that Britain should do it all--I cannot agree with her. While the information has been coming in I have responded, not to some but to all appeals that the British Government have received, be it from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, the world food programme or other agencies. I have received letters from agencies stating that they never received such a response. We shall go on responding, and I am not prepared to accept the hon. Lady's tired and empty allegations. Of course, charities are rightly making appeals--I back them fully and shall continue to do so.

Somalia

32. Mr. Bowis : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proposals he has for humanitarian and development aid to Somalia.

Mrs. Chalker : Conditions inside Somalia make the delivery of any form of aid extremely difficult. I have no plans at present to reinstate our development aid programme. I am ready to consider providing humanitarian aid directly once needs are defined and delivery can be assured. I have already provided emergency aid to Somali refugees who have fled from the current unrest.

Mr. Bowis : Does my right hon. Friend agree that Britain has a special interest in the well-being of the people of the north of Somalia because of our past relationship with British Somaliland and because of the number of Isak

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communities that there are here, including in my constituency? Will she take steps to go beyond what she has already achieved--she has given aid to people in Ethiopian refugee camps and helped the small water projects in the south--by bringing, through non- governmental organisations, some sort of humanitarian aid to the north, which is a desperate district that has not so far been helped by the Government?

Mrs. Chalker : I am very much aware of what my hon. Friend has said. The Somali National Movement controlled the north. Unfortunately, the United Somali Congress-appointed president in the interim Government in Mogadishu lacked the nationwide support that is much needed. The northern clans have now set up a separate administration. We do not know whether we shall be able to get even humanitarian aid into those areas, but we are waiting to hear from non-governmental organisations and from the UNHCR missions that have gone there. As the Somali refugees continue to cross the border into Ethiopia, I am today announcing another £430,000 to be given to the UNHCR to help.

Ms. Abbott : Is it true that while 27 million people in Africa face starvation--including those in Somalia--the European Economic Community is diverting aid from the third world to eastern Europe? If so, do the Government support that?

Mrs. Chalker : The EC has put up front the money that it has committed to Africa. It is not diverting funds as far as I know and we should certainly not support it if it were.

Caribbean

33. Mr. Ian Taylor : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions the Minister for Overseas Development had during her visit to the Caribbean.

Mrs. Chalker : I had wide-ranging discussions with the Prime Ministers of Barbados, Grenada, Dominica and St. Vincent and their Ministers and senior officials. I was very impressed with our projects and those of the Commonwealth Development Corporation and other agencies. The high commission and development division are working well in each island.

Mr. Taylor : I am grateful for that answer. Were the various countries concerned with the state of the Single European Act and with the implications of the European Community on their trade? If there is no access to their goods, there may be further pressure on the aid agencies in this country to assist them. Do we have any common ground with the French?

Mrs. Chalker : I discussed the possibility of diversified agricultural production with each island and especially with Miss Charles, the Prime Minister of Dominica. We are helping the islands through current projects to maximise opportunities for export earnings as well as encouraging the European Community to deal properly with the bananas after 1992. The United Kingdom is committed to effective preferential access arrangements for our traditional suppliers. We have already put a paper to the Commission, but the paper proposed by the French

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seems not to offer what the Caribbean banana producers need and it would involve a substantial levy, which we do not believe is the way forward.

Cambodia

34. Mr. O'Brien : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assistance the Government are giving to help the people of Cambodia with humanitarian needs ; and if he will make a statement.

Mrs. Chalker : In the past 12 years we have provided nearly £15 million for Cambodian refugees on the Thai border. Since 1989 we have also committed over £2 million for humanitarian assistance in Cambodia via British non-governmental organisations and United Nations agencies. We are ready to consider further requests for help.

Mr. O'Brien : I noted the right hon. Lady's reply, but what assistance can be given to those people who are suffering in the border camps because of the lack of fresh water supplies, which is the greatest killer of children in that area? As those people have been suffering because of war for the past 49 years, is not there something more that the Government can do to ease the situation in the border camps, especially with regard to fresh water supplies?

Mrs. Chalker : I sympathise with what the hon. Gentleman says about the supply of fresh water. We cannot act directly in the border camps, but we can, we have and we shall continue to act through the United Nations border relief organisation to try to bring relief to those people. It is not easy, but we shall continue to try. We also hope that some projects will come from the Mekong committee involving the provision of clean water in other parts of Cambodia. I should welcome that if we received the proposals.

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Statutory Instruments, &c.

Mr. Speaker : With the leave of the House, I will put together the Questions on the 17 motions relating to statutory instruments. Ordered,

That the draft Scottish Power plc (Rateable Values) (Scotland) (No. 2) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the Revenue Support Grant (Scotland) (No. 2) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c. That the draft Scottish Nuclear Limited (Rateable Values) (Scotland) (No. 2) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Mines and Quarries (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Mercury Communications Ltd. (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Lochaber Power Company (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Industrial and Freight Transport (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Glasgow Underground (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Electricity Generators (Rateable Values) (Scotland) (No. 2) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Caravan Sites and Pitches (Rateble Values) (Scotland) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft British Telecommunications plc (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft British Railways Board (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft British Gas plc (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft British Alcan Primary and Recycling Ltd. (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Water Undertakings (Rateable Values) (Scotland) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Scottish Hydro-Electric plc (Rateable Values) (Scotland) (No. 2) Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.

That the draft Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979 Statutory Sum Order 1991 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.-- [Mr. John M. Taylor.]

CIVIL JURISDICTION AND JUDGMENTS BILL [ Lords ] Ordered,

That the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Bill [ Lords ] be referred to a Second Reading Committee.--[ Mr. John M. Taylor. ]

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Point of Order

Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This gesture that we are being asked to enact has been presented by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary--

Mr. Speaker : The Bill?

Mr. Marlow : This gesture here, the War Crimes Bill.

Mr. Speaker : We have not reached the Bill yet.

Mr. Marlow : It has been presented by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and is supported by a Mr. Secretary Hurst. He is a non-existent Minister--a phantom Secretary of State. One can understand why

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ordinary flesh-and-blood Ministers may be reluctant to support such a measure, but is it in order for the House to debate legislation that has so obviously been printed by a poltergeist?

Mr. Speaker : My copy says "Mr. Secretary Hurd".

Mr. Marlow : On my copy, it says "Mr. Secretary Hurd"--and that is correct--

"Mr. Secretary King, Mr. Secretary Brooke, Mr. Secretary Hurst", and so on. I have looked carefully at the list of Members of this House and of the other place, and I cannot find a Mr. Secretary Hurst. Perhaps there is a Secretary of State who is in neither House.

Mr. Speaker : I think that it is a misprint for "Hunt". I will ensure that it is corrected.

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