House of Commons Hansard Debates for 13 Mar 1991

Hansard

House of Commons

Wednesday 13 March 1991

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT

Ordered, That, with effect from the beginning of the next Session of Parliament, the following Standing Order be made :--

27A--(1) Subject to paragraph (8) below, in the case of a Bill authorising the carrying out of works the nature and extent of which are specified in the Bill on land so specified, there shall be deposited on or before 4th December in the Private Bill Office and at the Public Departments at which copies of the Bill are required to the deposited under Standing Order 39, either

(a) a copy or copies (as specified by paragraph (2) below) of an environmental statement containing, in relation to the works authorised by the Bill, the information set out in Schedule 3 to the Town and Country Planning (Assessment of Environmental Effects) Regulations 1988 (referred to below as "Schedule 3") or such of that information as the Secretary of State may in any particular case direct, or

(b) a copy or copies (as so specified) of a direction by the Secretary of State that no such statement is necessary in relation to the works authorised by the Bill.

(2) The number of copies required to be deposited under paragraph (1)(a) or (b) above shall be three in the case of a deposit at the Department of the Environment and one in any other case.

(3) Where any such works authorised by a Bill relate to two or more distinct projects each project may be treated separately for the purposes of paragraph (1) above ; and the references in sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) of that paragraph to the works authorised by the Bill shall accordingly be construed, where the paragraph applies separately to each project, as references to the works comprised in that project.

(4) Notwithstanding any direction given as mentioned in paragraph (1)(a) above, any environmental statement of which copies are deposited under this Order shall contain the summary (referred to below as "the non-technical summary") required by paragraph (2)(e) and, where material, paragraph 4 of Schedule 3.

(5) Where the Secretary of State has given a direction as mentioned in paragraph (1)(a) above, a copy of the direction shall be deposited with every copy of the environmental statement deposited under paragraph (1)(b) above shall be accompanied by a statement by the Secretary of State of his reasons for giving the direction. (6) Copies of every environmental statement deposited under this Order shall be made available for inspection, and for sale at a reasonable price, on and after 4th December, at the offices at which copies of the Bill are required to be made available under Standing Order 4A ; and there shall also be made available separately on and after that date at those offices, for inspection and for sale at a reasonable price, copies of the non-technical summary.

(7) The reference to Schedule 3 in this Order is a reference to that Schedule as amended from time to time and includes a reference to the corresponding provision of any regulations which re-enact the Town and Country Planning (Assessment of Environmental Effects) Regulations 1988, with or without amendment ; and references to particular paragraphs of Schedule 3 shall be construed accordingly.

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(8) This Order does not require the deposit of copies of an environmental statement in relation to any works for which planning permission has been granted.'.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

[See Mr. Bennett's question in columns 1106-7 of Official Report, 14 March.]

EXPLANATORY MEMORANDA

Ordered,

That, with effect from the beginning of the next Session of Parliament, Standing Order 38 (Deposit of copies of bill in Vote Office and Private Bill Office) be amended as follows :

Line 5, at end add--

(2) There shall be attached to every copy of a Bill--

(a) delivered under this Standing Order,

(b) deposited, delivered or sent under any of the Standing Orders following this Order,

a printed memorandum describing the Bill generally and, subject to paragraph (3) below, every clause in the Bill.

(3) Related clauses may be dealt with together in the memorandum and it shall not be necessary to describe clauses providing only for the short title, commencement, interpretation, extent or costs of promotion of the Bill.'.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

COMMITTEES ON OPPOSED BILLS

Ordered,

That the following Amendments to Standing Orders be made :-- Standing Order 120 (Declaration by members of committee on opposed bill), line 10, after group' insert that I recognise my obligation to attend every meeting of the committee ;'

Standing Order 122 (Absence of chairman or members of committee on opposed bill), line 7, leave out from House' to end of line 11.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

OPPOSED BUSINESS (CONSIDERATION AND THIRD READING) Ordered,

That with effect from beginning of the next Session of Parliament--

A. The following Standing Order be made :

204A. When an order of the day has been read for the consideration or further consideration, as amended, of a private bill set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means at Seven o'clock, the Question, That the Bill, as amended, be now considered (Or be now further considered) shall not be put : but (unless the Chairman of Ways and Means names a future day for the consideration or further consideration of the bill, or a motion is made to recommit the bill in whole or in part), the House

(1) shall forthwith proceed to consider any amendments proposed on consideration of the bill which have been selected by Mr. Speaker ; and

(2) may, if there are no such amendments or when the amendments have been disposed of, proceed to the third reading of the Bill, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing order 205 (Notice of third reading.)'

B. Standing Order 205 (Notice of third reading) be amended by inserting, in line 1, at the beginning, Subject to the provisions of S.O. 204A (Opposed business (Consideration and Third Reading)).'.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

OPPOSED BUSINESS (LORDS AMENDMENTS)

Ordered,

That, with effect from the beginning of the next Session of Parliament, the following Standing Order be made :

208A. When an order of the day has been read for consideration or further consideration of Lords Amendments

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to a Private Bill set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means at Seven o'clock, the question, That the Lords Amendments be now considered (or be now further considered) shall not be put ; but (unless the Chairman of Ways and Means names a future day for the consideration or further consideration of the Lords Amendments) the House shall forthwith proceed to consider the same.'.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

QUORUM OF JOINT COMMITTEE ONCONFIRMATION BILL OR SPECIALPROCEDURE ORDER

Ordered,

That the following Amendments to Standing Orders be made :-- Standing Order 229 (Constitution of joint committee on confirmation bill), line 7, at end add--

(2) If any member of the committee of this House is prevented from continuing his attendance, the joint committee may, with the consent of all parties, continue its sitting in his absence, provided that the number of the committee of this House be not less than two ; but if the consent of any party is withheld, the joint committee shall adjourn and shall not resume its sittings in the absence of such member without leave of this House.'.

Standing Order 243 (Joint committees on petitions), line 51, leave out from two' to but' in line 52.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

TABLE OF FEES

Ordered,

That the following Table of Fees to be charged at the House of Commons shall apply to Bills for which petitions are deposited, Provisional Order Confirmation Bills presented, and Special Procedure Orders laid before Parliament, in the next Session of Parliament and thereafter.

I--FEES TO BE PAID BY THE PROMOTERS OF A PRIVATE BILL On the First Reading of the Bill £2,500

Following the Third Reading of the Bill £2,500

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The promoters of Personal Bills brought from the Lords may be charged one-twentieth of the preceding fees.

The promoters of Bills relating to charitable, religious, educational, literary or scientific purposes whereby no private profit or advantage is derived, and of Bills other than Bills promoted by local authorities from which the promoter appears unlikely to derive substantial personal or corporate gain, may be charged one quarter of the preceding fees.

II--FEES TO BE PAID BY PETITIONERS AND MEMORIALISTS On presentation of any Petition relating to a Private Bill or of any Memorial complaining that the Standing Orders have not been complied with, provided that no Petitioner or Memorialist shall be charged more than once under this head in respect of any one Bill £20

III--FEES TO BE PAID BY APPLICANTS FOR AND PETITIONERS AGAINST A PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL On the Second Reading of a Bill to confirm one or more Provisional Orders, other than a Bill to confirm an Order or Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, the applicants shall be charged a fee of £2,500.

On the deposit of each Petition £20

IV--FEES TO BE PAID FOR PROCEEDINGS ON A SPECIAL PROCEDURE ORDER On appearance before a Joint Committee on a Special Procedure Order, an applicant (other than a Minister) shall be charged a fee of £1,250. On the deposit of each Petition or Counter-Petition, or copy of either £10

V--FEES TO BE PAID ON THE TAXATION OF COSTS ON PRIVATE LEGISLATION For each £100 of any Bill of Costs allowed by the Taxing Officer £1-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

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Oral Answers to Questions

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

South Africa

1. Mr. John Carlisle : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on sanctions against South Africa.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mrs. Lynda Chalker) : The international community is increasingly recognising that the continued application of sanctions will not help the peaceful abolition of apartheid. South Africa's political transformation needs urgently to be underpinned by economic growth. With the political process now irreversible --a point reinforced by the tabling of legislation yesterday--economic sanctions should be lifted as soon as possible.

Mr. Carlisle : In the week that the English rugby team hopes to win the five-nations championship and consequently the grand slam, will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to seize the initiative and abandon all forms of sporting sanctions against South Africa? Would she care to remind the electorate of Neath that the prospective Labour candidate in the forthcoming by-election used to spread tintacks on rugby pitches and made his political career by disrupting rugby matches against South Africa? The electors in that lovely part of the world, who are rugby lovers, should remember that when they vote.

Mrs. Chalker : My hon. Friend has made his point about Neath extremely well and I can add nothing to it. The Government aim to restore normal sporting contacts with South Africa as soon as possible. We believe that sporting contacts should be resumed where and as soon as the sports bodies become integrated. The key is to build on the Commonwealth Foreign Ministers agreement of 16 February that those bodies that achieve unity should be recognised by the international community. Perhaps we can then all enjoy the kind of competition in sport, particularly in rugby, which I know we shall.

Mr. Robert Hughes : While I welcome the statement of intention by President de Klerk, is it not the case that very few political prisoners have yet been released, very few exiles have yet returned home, no one has yet received an indemnity from prosecution as promised a year ago last February and that negotiations for a peaceful change have yet to start? Given all that, would not it be better if the Government continued to put pressure on the South African Government to make progress instead of resting on rather vague promises and very little real action?

Mrs. Chalker : The hon. Gentleman should find out what is happening. The first large groups of exiles, 97 of them, returned on 7 March. They were members of the African National Congress from Lusaka. More are due to return from Zambia and Tanzania, and other groups as well, as the process speeds up. With regard to the hon. Gentleman's other point, President de Klerk's target to remove racially-based restrictions on the tenure of land, which he announced in a White Paper and about which legislation was tabled yesterday, seems to us to be making

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good progress. I know from my own discussions with him that he intends it to be brought through in the months ahead, and no later.

Sir George Gardiner : Since the South African Government are acting to remove all racially based legislation from their statute book, does my right hon. Friend agree that it is in the interests of all South Africans, especially black South Africans, that we put all talk of sanctions behind us and concentrate instead on how we can build the social and industrial investment that will underpin the new South African democracy?

Mrs. Chalker : My hon. Friend is right. The real inhibition to progress at the moment--it is serious--is an internal sanction--that of violence. It concerns the leadership of the ANC and of Inkatha, and they are trying very hard to get their own supporters not to follow the path of violence. As my hon. Friend says, it is vital to get new investment into South Africa so that the people there may have the benefit of it in terms of jobs, job experience and education. Those opportunities have been missing for black South Africans for far too long.

Mr. Robertson : Why is it that, despite the manifest success that sanctions pressure has had for change on the South African Government, our Government continue to remain out of step with everybody? At the Commonwealth Ministers meeting that our Government chose not to attend, the European Community Foreign Ministers and the United Nations sanctions committee believed that sanctions pressure should not be lifted until the legislation is enacted, not just tabled. Why must we be the only Government in the world to believe that the firm smack of appeasement is the way to deal with South Africa?

Mrs. Chalker : I am surprised at the hon. Gentleman. He knows full well that ever since 1986 we have not been part of the Commonwealth Foreign Ministers meetings. It is not just the United Kingdom that has been saying that sanctions should be lifted and that new investment should be encouraged. The European Community was unanimous that we should lift bans on the import of iron and steel and of Krugerrands when President de Klerk tabled legislation to repeal the Group Areas Act. On the Commonwealth, the many discussions that I have had over the past three months tell me full well that the Commonwealth is anxious to restore normal relations and that the southern front-line states have upped their trade with South Africa in no small measure since February 1990. That is to be encouraged.

Middle East

2. Mr. Anthony Coombs : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he will meet the Secretary-General of the United Nations to discuss the middle east.

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Douglas Hurd) : I have no plans to meet the United Nations Secretary-General in the immediate future, but we remain in close touch.

Mr. Coombs : Does my right hon. Friend agree that, although the war is now over, recent events in Iraq have shown that the peace and stability referred to in resolution 678 are unlikely to return to the region while Saddam

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Hussein remains in power? Does he further agree that any peace settlement for the region must include provision not only for the Palestinians but for the Kurdish people who merely want the autonomy and democracy for which they have fought for many years?

Mr. Hurd : I agree with my hon. Friend's first point. It is hard to see how Iraq can re-enter the international community or, indeed, reconstruct the country effectively while Saddam Hussein is in power. We should all like to see, as part of the general settlement, greater autonomy for Kurds and respect for their aspirations and rights.

Mrs. Fyfe : Does the Foreign Secretary agree that since the plight of the Kurds has been known for so many years while Saddam Hussein's power has increased, it is vital that the Government address the issue now?

Mr. Hurd : I have already answered that point.

Sir Dennis Walters : Bearing in mind that the Geneva convention is systematically broken by the Israelis on the west bank and Gaza and that, although there are encouraging signs of movement towards peace, progress will inevitably be slow, can anything be done in the meantime to protect the Palestinians from further abuse?

Mr. Hurd : The Security Council has debated that matter within the last few months following the shootings at Temple Mount. It is very much in the interests of all concerned that while we are working, as we are now working again, towards a just and lasting solution to the Palestinian problem, the conditions in which the Palestinians live on the west bank and in Gaza should be improved. I put that point strongly to the Israeli Foreign Minister when he visited me not long ago.

Mr. Kaufman : When the country is mourning our service men who were killed in the Gulf war--a war which would never have taken place if outside powers had not supplied Iraq with armaments--is not it indecent that outside powers are now poising themselves to pour arms back into the middle east once again, thus creating the potential for further wars in the region? Will the right hon. Gentleman meet the secretary-general and propose to him that the United Nations take an initiative to impose the most stringent controls on all arms imports into the middle east?

Mr. Hurd : The right hon. Gentleman has obviously studied this matter. As he knows, agreements and control regimes exist for the weapons of mass destruction, such as nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. We and the United Nations must ensure that those regimes are strengthened and that the loopholes and weaknesses are blocked. The issue of conventional arms is more difficult. We have our own criteria in this country, which are considerably more strict than those that others apply to the export of arms. There is a need for suppliers to discuss what criteria are reasonable to prevent a repetition of what has happened, when someone such as Saddam Hussein, with his record and clear intentions, built up an army of tanks that was nearly twice as large as those of Britain and France combined.

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Kuwait

3. Mr. Batiste : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when Her Majesty's Government expects to post its ambassador back to Kuwait.

Mr. Hurd : Her Majesty's ambassador returned to Kuwait on 28 February.

Mr. Batiste : Will my right hon. Friend express to the ambassador and his staff the considerable admiration that is felt in this country for the professionalism and courage that they displayed during the occupation of Kuwait? Turning to the future, my right hon. Friend will be aware that Yorkshire people and Yorkshire industry played a considerable part in the liberation of that country and would like to participate in its reconstruction. Is he satisfied that the embassy is now staffed up to the levels necessary to assist British industry during what might be an exceptionally busy period?

Mr. Hurd : I am sure that business men in Yorkshire and elsewhere are turning their minds ingeniously and energetically to playing a part in reconstructing Kuwait. Yes, the embassy is now staffing up. I suggest that business men from Yorkshire who are thinking of visiting Kuwait should get in touch with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office/Department of Trade and Industry task force under my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, because it may be a little time before visitors who do not have firm contracts can obtain visas to go there.

Mr. Leighton : Will the Foreign Secretary discuss with the British ambassador last night's worrying report on "Newsnight" by Mr. Charles Wheeler, which showed that foreign workers who were resident in Kuwait but had been abducted by the Iraqis and who are now attempting to make their way back in the most difficult and appalling circumstances are not being allowed back, but are being kept in the open desert for weeks on end, and that the Kuwaitis are denying food to foreign nationals who are resident in Kuwait? Is that what British service men died for? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is appalling? Will he take up this matter immediately with the British ambassador to get things changed?

Mr. Hurd : The ambassador has instructions, which he is carrying out daily, to urge upon the Kuwaiti authorities that they should deal with foreigners--I am thinking especially of Palestinians--equitably. There are bound to be problems in restoring ordinary conditions. Of course, there is a vacuum and it is not reasonable to expect normal conditions to return quickly. The hon. Gentleman is fair minded and he will accept that. However, from the beginning--indeed, before the liberation of Kuwait--we have been in contact with the Kuwaiti authorities and have urged them to bring the country back to normal conditions, especially in relation to justice and law and order, as soon as they can.

Middle East

5. Mr. Home Robertson : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on relations with countries in the middle east.

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12. Mr. Butler : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the current situation in the middle east.

Mr. Hurd : The coalition forces suspended hostilities against Iraq on 28 February. Security Council resolution 686 sets out the conditions which Iraq must fulfil for a definitive end to hostilities. We and our coalition partners will continue our efforts to achieve this and to restore peace and security to the area.

Mr. Home Robertson : That answer is welcome. Notwithstanding the incomprehensible public stance of the Palestine Liberation Organisation on the invasion of Kuwait, does the Secretary of State acknowledge that private pressure from the PLO led to, among other things, the release of British and other foreign hostages by Saddam Hussein back in December? Will he further acknowledge that there can be no security in the middle east until a just settlement is achieved for the Palestinian people? Will he join me in welcoming the acknowledgment by Secretary of State Baker of the continuing role of the PLO? Can we expect the British Government to start holding conversations with members of the PLO in the near future?

Mr. Hurd : It is certainly true that there cannot be a settlement of the Arab-Israel problems without a just settlement for the Palestinians. Unfortunately, it is also true that the present leadership of the PLO substantially weakened the authority with which it can speak on behalf of the Palestinians by supporting Saddam Hussein's aggression. That is a fact with which the Palestinians have to wrestle. I welcome the meeting that Secretary Baker had with Palestinians yesterday. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have our own contacts with Palestinians, both in the occupied territories and in Tunis.

Mr. Butler : I am sure that the whole House welcomes the sending of a United Nations team to investigate possible Iraqi atrocities in Kuwait. Will the remit of that team be extended to cover any possible subsequent atrocities?

Mr. Hurd : Like my hon. Friend, I welcome this sending of the secretary-general's team. I believe that it is investigating atrocities in Kuwait. I urged the Kuwaiti authorities some time ago that one of their actions when they returned to Kuwait should be to start drawing up an authentic catalogue of stories of such atrocities so that it can be made available to the United Nations.

Mr. Alton : On the third anniversary of the atrocities against the Kurds and the deaths of some 5,000 Kurds in one town alone, does the Foreign Secretary agree that perhaps the most fitting commemoration would be for the British Government and other allied Governments to take a more active role in seeking self-determination for the Kurdish people? What information does he have on the present Kurdish resistance in Iraq and the success that it is having?

Mr. Hurd : It is not realistic to suppose--nor does the hon. Gentleman ask for--an independent Kurdish state when one considers that Kurds live in four countries. What we are talking about and what my hon. Friends were talking about earlier, is a degree of autonomy and respect for Kurdish rights and practices. I agree with that.

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We have reason to believe that there is a substantial uprising in the northern parts of Iraq in which the Kurds are playing their part in an attempt to overthrow the regime in Baghdad.

Mr. Nelson : Now that many countries in the Gulf region--especially Kuwait--are back to the political drawing board, does my right hon. Friend accept that Britain has a historic and influential role to play in any political reconstruction? Does he share the view of some that there is little prospect of more enlightened and democratic government simply through transferring power from ruling families to other pairs of hands? Does he agree that what is probably needed is the democratic check of some representative councils along the lines of those set up in other Arab states, such as Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and the Sultanate of Oman, which have worked well to defend the interests of their people against excessive autocracy of government.

Mr. Hurd : I believe that Arab states, like countries in South America and black Africa, will find their own way towards greater involvement of their people in the processes of government. I hope very much that that will happen in Kuwait.

Mr. Ernie Ross : In an earlier response, the Secretary of State suggested that the PLO had somehow blotted its copybook. Yet he knows as well as I do that in recent attempts by western nations to find out who represents the Palestinian people, such as the visit of the troika of Ministers last week and that of James Baker yesterday when he met Faisal Husseini, Hanan Ashrawi, the mayor of Bethlehem and the ex-mayor of Hebron among others, who are the leaders of the Palestinians on the west bank and Gaza, all delegations made it clear that the one group which speaks for them is the PLO. I hope that the Secretary of State will not go back to the old game of simply putting off discussions on the pretext that he does not know who represents the Palestinians. They have made clear who their representatives are, and unless and until we talk to them, there can be no moves towards peace.

Mr. Hurd : I accept that, because the Palestinians must be an essential part of the answer to the Arab-Israel problem, there must be representative Palestinians, as opposed to Palestinians selected by the occupying forces. But it is important that the PLO leadership should, when organising themselves and deciding what to say and do in the near future, reflect on the harm that has been done by elements of that leadership during the recent Gulf crisis.

Germany

6. Mr. Knapman : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on Anglo-German relations.

10. Mr. Patrick Thompson : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the Anglo-German summit on 11 March.

Mr. Hurd : My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and others of us had excellent talks with Chancellor Kohl and his colleagues in Bonn at the summit on 11 March. The

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subjects discussed included the Gulf, the Soviet Union and eastern Europe, and issues affecting the European Community and the NATO alliance.

Mr. Knapman : I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his comprehensive and reassuring reply, but is it not the case that our new- found friends the Christian Democrats, are keen on federalism and a single currency? In those circumstances, what is to happen to our vision of a group of sovereign nation states co-operating together to achieve their mutual targets?

Mr. Hurd : If my hon. Friend is thinking of ties between parties, that is not strictly a matter for me. However, there is a lot to be said for coming together with like-minded parties against any socialist dominance in the European Parliament or anywhere else. On the governmental point to which my hon. Friend referred--our approach to the two intergovernmental conferences is based on the guidelines established last year and set out most recently by the Prime Minister in his foreword to the Foreign Office White Paper on the Community.

Mr. Patrick Thompson : While welcoming the development of a good working relationship with Germany, as described by my right hon. Friend, will he assure the House that the economic strength of a new united Germany should be regarded as an opportunity rather than a difficulty or threat?

Mr. Hurd : I think that my hon. Friend is right. I believe that there is everything to be said, partly due to the reason that he gave and partly due to the natural political weight of a unified Germany in the Community, for ensuring that we take every opportunity to make ourselves better acquainted with their ideas and make them better acquainted with ours.

Sir Russell Johnston : Did the Prime Minister take the opportunity to tell Chancellor Kohl to ignore any political Scud missiles emerging from Cirencester or Finchley and assure him that there would be no more peculiar conferences to examine the German psyche?

Mr. Hurd : The hon. Gentleman bases his question on some lurid press accounts of that occasion, which I attended and which was noted for its sobriety and good sense.

Sir Peter Blaker : Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is not only people of the Prime Minister's generation, but those who are so old that they actually took part in the second world war, who want the closest possible relations between the United Kingdom and Germany? Is it not natural and sensible that the leadership of the European Community should be in the hands of the United Kingdom as well as those of Germany and France?

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