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The Solicitor-General : The Government's response to each recommendation of the Select Committee on Home Affairs was laid before the House on 17 July this year. Good progress is being made in implementing the many recommendations that have been accepted.
Mr. Greenway : The Crown prosecution service has a formidable workload. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, in the light of the Government's proposals for community sentencing, we can divert more young offenders from courts by the use of cautions? Does he further agree that if, as the Committee recommended, we could extend the use of cautions to allow the police to administer penalties, such as reparation or compensation for damage or theft from victims, that would not only strengthen the deterrent effect of community service and cautions but divert young offenders from the courts and reduce the workload of the CPS?
The Solicitor-General : The Government recognise the value of cautioning in appropriate cases. One advance since the Government gave their response to the report of the Select Committee on Home Affairs was the issuing of a Home Office circular on national standards for cautioning. My hon. Friend raises a separate and extra question about penalties being imposed by the police. He will recall that that was dealt with in our response. Policy is a matter for the Home Secretary, but our response said that penalties were not for the police but for the courts.
Mr. Vaz : The Solicitor-General will recall that in oral evidence to the inquiry the Director of Public Prosecutions made the astonishing claim that members of the police force at all levels were obstructing the work of the Crown prosecution service. Have any discussions taken place between himself and the Home Secretary about those claims? Has co-operation between the police and the CPS improved since that report?
The Solicitor-General : I remember fairly well reading of the part played by the hon. Gentleman during the oral hearings. I did not take part in them, so I am not sure what he is talking about.
Mr. Vaz : The right hon. and learned Gentleman should have read the report.
The Solicitor-General : I read the hon. Gentleman's words--they were fairly extensive, as usual. The interdepartmental working group on pre- trial issues, which is examining the crucial working arrangements between the police and the CPS, is maintaining its tight timetable and will report to the Director shortly.
Mr. Holt : A 73-year-old constituent of mine was knocked down on a zebra crossing between her church and her church hall. Although the CPS knew that the driver was speeding at the time, it did not bring sufficiently serious charges for the matter to be dealt with by the High Court. The magistrates decided, in their infinite wisdom, to impose a fine and allowed the points that would
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automatically have taken the taxi driver into disqualification to be taken concurrently with the penalties applying to his previous offences so that he was not disqualified from driving. If such actions are allowed to continue, will not faith in the CPS be totally eroded?The Solicitor-General : I understand my hon. Friend's anxiety about particular cases, but I invite the House to remember that we live in a society in which prosecutions are a matter for the independent prosecuting authorities and penalties are wholly a matter for the independent courts which try each case.
Birmingham Pub Bombings
28. Mr. Mullin : To ask the Attorney-General when he next expects to meet the Director of Public Prosecutions to discuss the appeal of the six men convicted of the Birmingham pub bombings ; and if he will make a statement.
The Solicitor-General : I meet the Director of Public Prosecutions frequently to discuss matters of departmental interest.
Mr. Mullin : The six men convicted of the Birmingham pub bombings now face their 17th Christmas in prison for offences of which many people believe they were entirely innocent. The Home Secretary acted with commendable speed in August in referring the case back within two days to the Court of Appeal. The Director of Public Prosecutions has so far taken three months to set a timetable for the appeal to take place. When will that appeal take place?
The Solicitor-General : The date of the appeal is primarily a matter for the court, subject to its listing arrangements. The court can be expected to hear the matter once all parties are ready. As the hon. Gentleman should, and probably does, know, since my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary referred the case on 29 August, it has been necessary to collect and collate an enormous mass of written material. About 130 files have fairly recently been disclosed to the defence after careful collation, together with important scientific evidence concerning the electrostatic evidence which was the basis of my right hon. and learned Friend's reference and further important evidence in relation to the handling of explosives.
The Solicitor-General : The matter will be brought before the court when the defence has had the opportunity to assimilate that material.
Mr. Mullin : The defence is ready.
The Solicitor-General : The hon. Gentleman should listen to the answer. It is rather foolish of him to say that the defence is entirely ready when it has just received a large bundle of material which it will wish to look at extremely carefully before bringing the matter before the court. The material is with the defence and the matter can now proceed.
Mr. Stanbrook : If the evidence of all criminal trials were to be as thoroughly examined as in this case, no one would ever remain convicted.
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Mr. Speaker : Order. This matter is sub judice, as the hon. Gentleman should know, and he should therefore be very careful what he says.
Mr. Stanbrook : Is it right that we should try so hard to discredit our own system of justice?
The Solicitor-General : We have a careful system which includes the power of the Home Secretary in appropriate circumstances to refer a case again and, in exceptional circumstances, for a second time, to the Court of Appeal. The case has been referred to the Court of Appeal. It is, of course, sub judice, and it will be heard as soon as the parties are ready and the court gives a date.
Local Government Finance
29. Mr. Cohen : To ask the Attorney-General whether he proposes to appear in his official capacity in court in any poll tax case.
The Solicitor-General : I am not aware of any cases on the community charge currently before the High Court or Court of Appeal other than the Crown v. Leicester City Justices ex parte Barrow and Barrow. That case relates to the right of a charge payer defending proceedings for a liability order to have a friend, usually known as a McKenzie friend, in court. In that case, at the request of the court, the Attorney-General has appointed an amicus curiae to assist the court.
Mr. Cohen : But there are many poll tax cases before the magistrates at the moment. The Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General are the Government's chief prosecutors and, as everyone knows, the poll tax is a Government tax, so why are not the cases before those higher courts? Perhaps the Solicitor-General can explain why magistrates are ignoring people's pleas that they cannot pay and why they are ignoring the McKenzie ruling, which says that people can have someone sitting beside them to defend them, especially as the cases are dealt with so rapidly. One of the Government's legal officers said that about 2,500 cases are dealt with in a day in one court. Surely that denies people the right to speak in their own defence. Are not the Government running the legal system of a Saddam Hussein? Why has the poll tax been allowed to bring British justice to such a low point?
The Solicitor-General : That was an interesting question. Most taxes in a democracy are Government taxes--not many other people levy taxes--but the determination of cases in which people do not pay is a matter for the independent courts.
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
Saw Mill Projects
33. Mr. Peter Bottomley : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what help is given to transportable saw mill projects.
The Minister for Overseas Development (Mrs. Lynda Chalker) : We are supporting a project promoting the properly managed use of portable saw mills in Papua New Guinea, the Solomon islands and Vanuatu. We are ready
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to consider other projects provided that the International Institute for Environment and Development review of the project is positive.Mr. Bottomley : In addition to encouraging the turning of wood on islands into construction timber, which is of great advantage to the local people, will my right hon. Friend try to find ways of promoting ecological trading in planks from fine timber so that, instead of mass clearances which do no good to local people, we can have sustainable development in wood? The use of portable saw mills would allow that to happen rather than all the wood having to be dragged away in the form of trees.
Mrs. Chalker : One of the useful aspects of the walkabout saw mill project is the training that it provides in marketing, rotational felling in woods and environmental awareness which will prevent the very results that my hon. Friend fears. With the benefit of training, indigenous peoples will find that the projects are not only environmentally sound but avoid the need for mass felling, road building through forest areas, heavy extraction plant and everything that we dislike about large-scale wood felling.
Human Rights
34. Mr. Madden : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proposals he has to link United Kingdom overseas aid to human rights observance.
Mrs. Chalker : The observance of human rights is an important factor which the Government take into account in allocating aid to developing countries.
Mr. Madden : Does the Minister accept that that reply will be extremely disappointing to many British people who fail to understand why British overseas aid should not be directly linked to human rights observance? Does she understand that there is great concern about human rights violations in Sri Lanka, the Punjab, Kashmir and many other places? Will she urgently consider adopting the suggestions being made in America and elsewhere that aid should be linked with human rights?
Mrs. Chalker : I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I am already doing what he asks. The Government take the human rights record of aid recipients very seriously, but there are many other factors which we must consider at the same time, including a nation's poverty, the state of its environment and its population and health problems. One cannot consider human rights in isolation, but we never fail to consider them in making a decision.
Mr. Andrew Mitchell : Is not it absolutely right and extremely important that a country's human rights observance should be a fundamental part of any development aid awarded by this Government? Will my right hon. Friend give us some examples of where the human rights record has played a fundamental part in the award of aid?
Mrs. Chalker : It is easier to say where, sadly, we have had to take action because the human rights record was so bad. In that respect I can name Somalia, Burma and Sudan. However, it is also important that we try not to hurt the ordinary people who are very vulnerable. That is why we often maintain humanitarian aid through
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non-governmental organisations and perhaps the United Nations when we cannot possibly continue to give Government-to- Government aid to countries where human rights are not respected.Mr. Simon Hughes : With regard to the question by the hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden), will the Minister make representations to the new Government of India in relation to human rights violations in the Punjab? We are aware that the Punjab is a small part of the area covered by the Indian programme, but, as it is the largest programme in the Government's overseas development effort, it would be appropriate for strong representations to be made as a matter of urgency given the allegations--which have been supported--of regular human rights violations.
Mrs. Chalker : We are extremely disturbed by the recent communal violence. It is too early to comment on whether the new Government will get to grips with the problem, but obviously we believe that they should. I hope that we will enjoy the same close relationship with the new Government so that we can talk frankly and help the Indian Government to bring about peace in those areas and a respect for human rights which is so essential.
Cambodia
35. Mr. Lawrence : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what humanitarian aid has been provided for Cambodians over the past two years ; and what plans he has for further provision of such aid.
Mrs. Chalker : In the past 18 months, the ODA has committed £565, 000 supporting 12 NGO projects. A number of other NGO project proposals is being considered. We have also allocated £1.25 million for programmes carried out by the United Nations childrens fund, the World Food Programme and the World Health Organisation. In addition, up to £100,000 will be spent through British NGOs to help civil war displaced persons. Cambodia's humanitarian assistance needs are monitored regularly.
Mr. Lawrence : Is my right hon. Friend aware that that is a very encouraging answer? While a resolution to the political situation in Cambodia is unfortunately taking time, the Government appear to be getting on with humanitarian aid through the NGOs which is generous, highly effective and shows no sign of diminishing.
Mrs. Chalker : I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend. However, we are not just involved in humanitarian aid. The friends of the co- chairmen's working group met at the weekend in Jakarta. We are working together with the permanent five under the chairmanship of the Indonesian Foreign Minister Ali Alatas and we are doing all that we can to bring about a meeting at which the co-chairmen can bring the Supreme National Council together. Until there is a peaceful solution in Cambodia, no matter how much money we put in or how much help we provide through the NGOs, we will not be able to bring peace to the people.
Mrs. Clwyd : Why does the Minister come here month after month offering limp and petty excuses for denying proper developmental aid to one of the poorest countries
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in the world? Does the Minister realise that the United Nations General Assembly resolution on Cambodia, which was passed in October without dissent, calls on donor countries to provide resources for the economic and social reconstruction of Cambodia? When do the Government propose to implement that resolution which they signed and voted for?Mrs. Chalker : As usual, the hon. Lady goes wide of the aid brief. However, we have always believed that the United Nations had to have a central role in restoring peace and stability to Cambodia. We have also given the humanitarian aid that we can put in. We now want to ensure that the co-ordinating committee in Paris thrashes out the details for a settlement. As soon as that is done, we shall be able to follow through on giving more help and aid to Cambodia which it needs for reconstruction.
Brazil
36. Mr. Burns : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on Britain's environmental aid to Brazil following the recent visit of the Minister for Overseas Development.
Mrs. Chalker : During my three-day visit I signed agreements for two new environmental co-operation projects. I saw some of the serious urban environmental problems of Recife and Olinda in the north-east, where Britain provides technical co-operation. I opened the Anglo-Brazilian environmental conference, supported by ICI, on the theme of "Ecological Restoration for Forest Conservation" and I discussed environmental matters with Brazilian Ministers.
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Mr. Burns : Does my right hon. Friend accept that her visit was particularly welcome as it highlights the importance given in this country to the question of tropical forests? What progress has been made under the memorandum of understanding with the Brazilian Government? Can my right hon. Friend mention any projects that are being developed under the agreements?
Mr. Chalker : Following the memorandum of understanding that was signed last year, our programme is making good progress. We have already agreed four projects at a cost of £4.6 million : the Institute of Hydrology climate research project ; the Caxiuana research station ; the Recife environmental control project ; and aromatic plant development. We expect to approve shortly a further four projects, costing another £4 million. We are discussing a number of other proposals with the Brazilian authorities. One of the other major steps forward is to get our forestry adviser based permanently in Brasilia to monitor what is going on there on the ground.
Mr. Dalyell : What part are we to play in Project North-East in relation to the drylands?
Mrs. Chalker : That was precisely one of the subjects on which, when I came back from the north-east, I asked for more information and work. I discussed the matter with Mr. Lutzemberger and with Mr. Goldenberg. I hope that there may be work that we can do with the Brazilian Government, and indeed with governments of local states there, to try to bring some solutions to those very dry lands.
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