House of Commons Hansard Debates for 19 Jul 1990

Paramilitary Actions

9. Mr. Alton : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many people have been killed or injured in Northern Ireland as a consequence of paramilitary activity since 1969.

Mr. Brooke : Since 1969, 2,804 people have been killed and 32,700 people injured. Four of those deaths have occurred since I last answered questions on 21 June. Constable Harold Beckett and Constable Garry Meyer, both full-time members of the RUC, were murdered as they patrolled the city centre in Belfast. William Sloss was murdered by the Irish People's Liberation Organisation and Martin Hughes by the Ulster Freedom Fighters in sectarian attacks.

However, the police and the Army continue to make important finds of arms and ammunition. They also made a number of significant arrests in recent weeks. In particular, I know the whole House will join me in praising the exemplary courage of the young RUC constable who drove off a heavily armed Provisional IRA gang in Dungannon. But for his quick thinking and bravery, I am sure that he and his colleague would be dead today.

Mr. Alton : I am sure that the House will concur with the sentiments expressed by the Secretary of State. Does he agree with what Dr. Cahal Daly said yesterday that sectarian killings are the product of sick minds and twisted attitudes? He described those actions as loathsome and despicable. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that at some time the House will have to decide that those who pursue the strategy of the armalite and the bomb in one hand and the ballot box in the other will have to forgo the right to stand for election to this Parliament?

Mr. Brooke : I join the hon. Gentleman in endorsing the comments expressed yesterday by Bishop Cahal Daly and I am sure that the whole House would do the same. The

Column 1163

second part of the hon. Gentleman's question related to the proscription of organisations. I keep that matter constantly under review.

Mr. Barry Porter : Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is time that we listened to half the advice given by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) and stopped this pretence of saying that the Anglo-Irish Agreement has achieved any of its fundamental aims? It has not. That emperor has no clothes. I wish my right hon. Friend every success in the discussions, but will not he concede that there is no reason to blame my hon. Friends who represent the Unionist cause on both sides of the House as they have expressed good will towards reaching some agreement. If the talks fail, let us place that blame where it lies, and that is on Dublin.

Mr. Brooke : My hon. Friend has asked a comprehensive question. The question asked by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) perhaps had a conclusion different from that suggested by my hon. Friend. We are more likely to make progress in the talks if we concentrate on looking forward and on the positive aspects rather than questioning the motivation of anyone who is involved in them.

Mr. Hume : In answer to the hon. Member for Wirral, South (Mr. Porter) and some other Conservative Members, will the Secretary of State confirm that we will not have lasting peace and stability in Ireland without the full agreement of the Irish Government and all constitutional parties in Northern Ireland?

Mr. Brooke : I endorse what the hon. Gentleman says about uniting people of peace and good will to ensure that the terrorist is defeated.

Economy

10. Mr. Hague : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the state of the Northern Ireland economy and its future prospects.

Mr. Cope : I do not underestimate the longstanding problems of the Northern Ireland economy, but there has been a significant improvement in recent years. The latest figures show that, compared with a year ago, manufacturing output has risen by 5 per cent., the number of employees in employment in March 1990 had risen by nearly 4,000 and it was announced today that the number of unemployed people in June 1990 had fallen by 9,100.

Mr. Hague : Will my right hon. Friend emphasise that today's unemployment figures, which show a fall in male and female unemployment, are part of a continuing and healthy trend? Should not that be a source of encouragement and optimism to everyone inside and outside the Province who believes that it will have a prosperous future, irrespective of its various difficulties, as it increasingly shares in the economic growth of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Cope : I entirely share the sentiments expressed in the last part of my hon. Friend's question and I confirm that the reduction is part of a trend. The unemployment figures announced today were the lowest for just over eight years.

Column 1164

Mr. Molyneaux : Does the Minister agree that the unemployment figures could be further reduced if terrorists stopped destroying businesses, even in their own areas, and if paramilitaries stopped intimidating employers and employees, again in their own areas, while, with typical hypocrisy, complaining of the shortage of jobs?

Mr. Cope : I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Terrorists and their activities are most damaging. It is their intention to damage the economy and other aspects of life in Northern Ireland, and they certainly affect the figures that I have given. The greatest boost to the economy of Northern Ireland would be the defeat and ending of terrorism.

Mr. Ian Bruce : Has my right hon. Friend considered the economic success of the Republic of Ireland compared with Northern Ireland and how it has been affected by the decision that it took many years ago to fix the punt to other European currencies, as opposed to the pound floating more freely?

Mr. Cope : As some of the figures that I gave earlier are better than those for the Republic, my hon. Friend might like to reflect on his question. So far as I know, there is no intention to have a separate currency for Northern Ireland.

Shipbuilding

11. Dr. Godman : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the shipbuilding industry in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Needham : Harland and Wolff was returned to private sector ownership in September last year. I understand that the company's current order book extends into 1993.

Dr. Godman : I am pleased to hear of those developments, and my pleasure will be shared by many of my constituents who have relatives and friends in Northern Ireland. May I press the Minister to resist proposals-- offered, I think, by ministerial colleagues--that the European Community shipbuilding intervention fund be further reduced? Similarly, will he urge Harland and Wolff, where it uses those funds, to purchase engines and equipment from manufacturers in the United Kingdom?

Mr. Needham : The very fact that Harland and Wolff is now in the private sector means that almost all aspects of its business are going up : productivity is up, orders are up, and confidence is up. The only thing going down are its losses. Morale is up. That is all due to the fact that Harland and Wolff is out on its own and has a full order book which will last until the middle of the decade.

Further Education

12. Mr. Dover : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on his Department's consultation document on further education.

Dr. Mawhinney : Further education has an important contribution to make to the economic and social life of Northern Ireland. The consultative document "Signposts

Column 1165

for the 90s : A Review of Further Education" highlights the main issues which need to be addressed and identifies a number of ways forward. The consultative period will last until the end of the year and I look forward to receiving the views of the many interested parties.

Mr. Dover : Does the Minister agree that the proposal to allow further education students to study university module courses for two years is revolutionary and innovative and that it will open up the possibility of higher education to many more Northern Ireland students?

Dr. Mawhinney : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That is one of a number of proposals that we are seeking to canvass during the consultative period, not least because it would make a particularly significant contribution in Northern Ireland, which no longer has a polytechnic.

PRIME MINISTER

Engagements

Q1. Mr. John Greenway : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 19 July.

The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher) : This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. I also participated in the deputation from the House which attended on Her Majesty the Queen Mother. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.

Mr. Greenway : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the defeat of inflation demands that, as well as central Government, local authorities must exercise restraint and responsibility in their spending plans? What conclusions does she draw from the fact that North Yorkshire county council, under Conservative control, increased its spending this year by less than any other shire county, yet regularly achieves some of the best exam results in the country ; while the actions of high-spending Derbyshire county council, under Labour, have been declared in the High Court to be vindictive, illegal and a flagrant abuse of power?

The Prime Minister : Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend. Sound financial discipline is crucial to good management control of the economy. I congratulate North Yorkshire county council on its record and especially on its good education record--on a comparatively low community charge, lower than other people's. That shows that it can be done and that it is not the amount spent but the way that taxpayers' and charge payers' money is managed that matters.

Mr. Kinnock : Will the Prime Minister accept that the concern about the family which she expressed in her speech yesterday is widely shared and indeed praiseworthy? Given that concern, can she tell us what she thinks most damages families? Is it the highest mortgage rate in history? Is it the poll tax that has been imposed? Is it the freeze on child benefit, or the abandonment of community care?

The Prime Minister : The greatest support that we can give families in material terms is to keep the economy going so that it produces the highest number of jobs we have ever had in our history, the highest standard of living

Column 1166

we have ever had in our history, and the best social services ; and, as I said in my speech yesterday, it is to give particular support to lone parent families.

Mr. Kinnock : That reply shows that there is an unbridgeable gap between what the Prime Minister says is her concern about the family and what she is actually prepared to do about it. Does not she understand that the announcement yesterday that the Government are ratting on their pledge to provide help for people who care for disabled and elderly people at home shows contempt for some of the most needy, and certainly some of the most deserving, people in the whole of the land?

The Prime Minister : I remind the right hon. Gentleman that local authorities are spending half as much again on personal social services over and above inflation as they were in 1979. There are 22 per cent. more day-care places, 26 per cent. more home helps and 13 per cent. more meals served to the elderly and disabled. As for the Government support for the elderly in nursing and residential homes, for every £1 Labour spent we are spending £100. Labour Members talk ; we deliver the goods.

Mr. Kinnock : Will the Prime Minister explain to the House, and to the millions outside, why the Government are effectively forbidding the necessary help to be given to people who are caring for loved ones with Alzheimer's disease and other dreadfully disabling diseases, thus saving the community and the taxpayer billions of pounds? Why has the Prime Minister ratted on the promise that she made?

The Prime Minister : As the right hon. Gentleman knows, certain aspects of community care are going ahead. He also knows that--as I have said--the Labour party's record in government of looking after the elderly- - [Interruption.] Of course Opposition Members do not want to hear about that ; they only want to hear the hot air that the right hon. Gentleman pours out. For every £1 that the last Labour Government spent on residential nursing homes for the elderly, this Government are spending £100. We have created the wealth, looked after it well and ensured that it reached some of the people who needed it.

Mrs. Ann Winterton : Will my right hon. Friend do all in her power to ensure that the corridors of peace in Angola are opened to allow urgent humanitarian aid to reach all needy Angolans, bearing in mind the terrible famine that is afflicting that country?

The Prime Minister : It is beyond our power to keep those corridors open. As my hon. Friend knows, when we receive urgent requests for humanitarian aid because people are greatly in need of food and water, we usually meet them.

Q2. Mr. Darling : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 19 July.

The Prime Minister : I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Darling : The Prime Minister now says that she is concerned with the family. Why, then, did she block the EC directive that would have given three months' parental leave per child? Have not we something to learn from the West Germans who, in addition to having a very successful

Column 1167

economy, give 12 months' parental leave per child--soon to be increased to 18 months--and, in addition, 14 weeks' paid maternity leave?

The Prime Minister : The draft directive to which the hon. Gentleman refers will not be published till September.

Q3. Mr. Carrington : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 19 July.

The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Carrington : Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in a recent list of the world's top 500 companies, Britain was shown to have the third highest number? We were behind only Japan and the United States of America, and way ahead of our European partners. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this gives the lie to those who never miss an opportunity, either at home or abroad, to run down our industrial performance?

The Prime Minister : Yes, I saw the report : 43 British companies are represented on that list, which is the third best number after the United States and Japan. We should also realise that, of the 50 best- performing companies in the European Community, 28 are British. They are performing well. We have great opportunities for more businesses to be set up under this Government. As my hon. Friend knows 1,700 new businesses a week have been set up this year.

Mr. Ashdown : Does the Prime Minister now regret her support for the barbarians of the Khmer Rouge?

The Prime Minister : As I have told the right hon. Gentleman, we have never supported the Khmer Rouge. What we did support, along with many other people, was an alliance under Prince Sihanouk which happened to include the Khmer Rouge, for a seat in the United Nations. We said that we would look at that again along with our other permanent member partners in the United Nations.

The right hon. Gentleman should also remember that a goodly number of the Hun Sen Government of Cambodia were also members of the Khmer Rouge.

Q4. Sir Michael McNair-Wilson : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 19 July 1990.

The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Sir Michael McNair-Wilson : Perhaps I may start the fraternal batting by asking my right hon. Friend whether she is aware that it takes between 13 and 15 years for a major road bypass scheme, such as that announced in Newbury today, to be approved and completed. In view of the importance of the road programme to our nation's economy, may I suggest that it would be wholly beneficial to find a way of reducing cumbersome and long-drawn-out planning procedures and enable new roads to be completed more swiftly?

The Prime Minister : I have a good deal of sympathy with my hon. Friend. The problem is to balance the need for public consultation and the right to make objections with the need to get on and build the roads. The longer it takes, the more the price goes up. A planning Bill is expected in the next Session of this Parliament. We hope

Column 1168

and believe that it will contain measures to enable higher compensation to be given to those whose property is compulsorily purchased. That, too, should help to speed up the process.

Mr. Maginnis : No doubt the Prime Minister was dismayed by the Supreme Court ruling in Dublin in the McGimpsey and McGimpsey v. Ireland case where it was found that the Anglo-Irish Agreement was complementary to the territorial claim enshrined in articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution. What will the Prime Minister do to support the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in his efforts to bring political peace to Northern Ireland and overcome the obstructiveness of the Government of the Irish Republic?

The Prime Minister : As the hon. Gentleman is aware, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has the full support of Her Majesty's Government and, I believe, of most people in seeking a good basis for the peoples of Northern Ireland to go ahead together to find a better basis for government in the Province. He has our full support, and I hope that he will be successful in his efforts.

Q5. Sir Patrick McNair-Wilson : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 19 July 1990.

The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Sir Patrick McNair-Wilson : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the current strength of sterling on the world markets is further evidence of the correctness of her Government's economic policies? Is not it clear that the people of Britain can look forward to lower inflation and falling interest rates in the months ahead, now that the difficulties of the 1987 crash have been finally exorcised?

The Prime Minister : I agree with my hon. Friend. It is a great vote of confidence in the policies of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. A strong pound will exert downward pressure on unit wage costs which will mean that our goods will become more competitive and we can continue to increase our exports. We prefer a strong pound, whether in or outside the exchange rate mechanism, or--to put it the other way round-- whether outside or eventually in the exchange rate mechanism.

Q6. Mr. Ron Brown : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 19 July 1990.

The Prime Minister : I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Brown : The Prime Minister's Government encourage state schools and hospitals to opt out. Those are spurious rights, of course, but what about Scotland? Is not it entitled to opt out of the system, too? Is not it entitled to its own Parliament, or is that extending democracy too far? If it is not, she should have a word with Mr. Gorbachev because he will argue for self-determination. He has said that much.

The Prime Minister : Hospitals in Scotland may become self governing, but that is not equivalent to opting out of the health service ; it is a different way of being governed within it. The hon. Gentleman is aware that it takes longer for schools in Scotland to opt out, because, whereas all

Column 1169

schools in England have school boards or courts of governors, that is not the case in Scotland. We had to set up those boards initially before we could proceed to the next stage.

Q7. Mr. Conway : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 19 July.

The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Conway : Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the county of Shropshire there are more than 2,000 beds in private nursing homes and homes for the elderly? Is not it staggering that this Government have spent more than

Column 1170

£990 million supporting the elderly in those homes, as opposed to the £10 million spent under the previous Labour Government? Are not their weasel words ultimately their downfall?

The Prime Minister : Yes, Sir. I am grateful to my hon. Friend as that is the mesage I have been trying to get across to the Opposition during this Question Time. We have talked rather less than them, but spent a lot more on looking after those who are sick and ill. The benefits for carers have also increased enormously under the Government. Spending on invalid care allowance, for example, has increased from £8 million in 1979 to more than £180 million now. They talk, we act.

Next Section (Debates)

Home Page