House of Commons Hansard Debates for 19 Jul 1990

Hansard

House of Commons

Thursday 19 July 1990

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

Redbridge London Borough Council Bill

(By Order) Order for consideration of Lords amendment read.

To be considered on Tuesday 24 July at Seven o'clock.

Medway Tunnel Bill

[Lords] (By Order)

Order for Third Reading read.

Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified.

Read the Third time and passed, with amendments.

British Railways (No. 2) Bill

(By Order)

Order for consideration, as amended, read.

To be considered on Wednesday 25 July.

Birmingham City Council

(No. 2) Bill-- (By Order) Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question proposed [26 February],

That the Bill be now considered.

Debate further adjourned till Wednesday 25 July.

London Underground Bill

(By Order)

Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question proposed [12 July],

That the Bill be now read a Second time.

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Debate further adjourned till Tuesday 24 July at Seven o'clock.

Mr. Speaker : As the remaining seven Bills set down for Second Reading have blocking motions, with the leave of the House I shall put them together.

Heathrow Express Railway Bill

[Lords] (By Order)

Cattewater Reclamation Bill

(By Order)

Vale of Glamorgan (Barry Harbour) Bill

[Lords] (By Order) Orders for Second Reading read.

To be read a Second time on Wednesday 25 July.

London Regional Transport (Penalty Fares) Bill

(By Order) Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question proposed [10 May],

That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Debate further adjourned till Wednesday 25 July.

Southampton Rapid Transit Bill

[Lords] (By Order) Orders for Second Reading read.

To be read a Second time on Wednesday 25 July.

Exmouth Docks Bill

(By Order)

Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question proposed [29 March],

That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Debate further adjourned till Wednesday 25 July.

Killingholme Generating Stations (Ancillary Powers) Bill

[Lords] (By Order)

Order for Second Reading read.

To be read a Second time on Wednesday 25 July.

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Oral Answers to Questions

NORTHERN IRELAND

Republic of Ireland (Transport Links)

1. Mr. Stott : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he last met the Irish Minister for Tourism and Transport to discuss transport links between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Bottomley) : The day before yesterday

Mr. Stott : I thank the Minister for that most encouraging reply. Is he aware that my right hon. and hon. Friends and I fully support the plans agreed between Northern Ireland Railways and the Irish railway company for the upgrading of the Belfast to Dublin line? Will the Minister confirm that the £54 million grant provided by the EEC regional fund for that project is specifically dedicated to making cross-border and other improvements to the line? In other words, is not it a dedicated budget? Does the Minister have any idea of when the Irish Government will give the plan their seal of approval?

Mr. Bottomley : Mr. Seamus Brennan made it plain that the Irish Government are committed to improving and maintaining the line. I cannot confirm dedicated funds for the line. That is as much for the Irish as for us to speak to the Community about. We have agreed with the Irish Government to undertake a detailed examination of the costs and benefits, and I hope that we shall be able to report progress to our respective Parliaments shortly.

Mr. Kilfedder : May we have an assurance that the IRA will not be allowed to destroy that important link between Belfast and Dublin? Does the Minister agree that the IRA's campaign to destroy it is indicative of its opposition to a rapprochement between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic and between the people of Ulster and the people of the Republic of Ireland?

Mr. Bottomley : Yes. The IRA's action is essentially partitionist. I remind the House of the words of the Republic's Justice Minister, Ray Burke, that it is only by an act of God that there has not been a major disaster. The IRA is relying on the security forces to get every incident exactly right. I hope that those who mourn over the level crossing crash outside Ballymena will realise that the IRA risks such accidents every time that it places a real or hoax bomb on the line.

Mr. John D. Taylor : As Northern Ireland exports only 5 per cent. of its products to the Republic, does the Minister accept that as we move towards the single market, a first-class rail and road system between Belfast and Dublin is a necessity? Does he share the disappointment of most people in Northern Ireland that the Dublin Government seem to be rejecting the offer of financial assistance made by the European Community, to provide a fast rail link between Belfast and Dublin? Is not that a further example of Dublin saying no to co-operation with Northern Ireland?

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Mr. Bottomley : I think that my earlier remarks made it plain that the opposite is the case. I trust the Irish Transport Minister when he says that the Republic is committed to improving the line. A rail link between the two capitals of Ireland must make more sense and represent a better option than having to drive between the two. In the same way, it would be a good idea if the railway from the north-west ran to Belfast and on to Dublin. That, too, would be a better option than driving. Both would make sense in terms of the environment and reducing road casualties. It would also help the economic grography of Northern Ireland to improve rather than worsen.

Rev. Ian Paisley : It is important to keep the rail link open, but has the Minister had discussions about the channel tunnel? Which way will its traffic run? Is he aware that a large sum of money has been granted to the Irish Republic to strengthen culverts and to widen roads, but nothing seems to be done north of the border to maintain the present level of traffic through Larne port?

Mr. Bottomley : The Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Wiltshire, North (Mr. Needham), who is responsible for the economy, and I had a meeting with the Belfast chamber of commerce. We all agreed that we must give business in Northern Ireland a choice of routes. The Dublin chamber of commerce has also made it clear that much business in the south prefers the roads and railways in the north and that is why so much of its traffic goes through Warrenpoint, Belfast and Larne. We aim to maintain our competitive advantage while seeing improvements north and south.

Extradition

2. Mr. William Ross : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many requests have been made by the Royal Ulster Constabulary for the extradition of persons sought for (a) terrorist crimes and (b) other crimes since 1 April ; and how many persons in each category have been sent back to Northern Ireland as a result of those requests.

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. John Cope) : The answer to both parts of the question is none, Sir.

Mr. Ross : Does the fact that the Royal Ulster Constabulary has not seen fit to make any requests for extradition finally confirm the impression of many people in Northern Ireland that the Government now believe that there is no chance whatever of the Irish Republic ever honouring any international obligation in relation to the extradition of those charged with terrorist crimes in the United Kingdom in general, not merely in Northern Ireland? Will the Government now stop making excuses for the Irish Republic, which has behaved most abominably in that regard?

Mr. Cope : I do not make excuses, but the RUC sends a request for a warrant from Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland, first when there is good reason to believe that a particular individual is in the Republic and, secondly, when we have sufficient evidence to succeed with a warrant and, we hope, to mount a prosecution when an individual is returned. Since 1985 the general record has improved and we are working to improve it still further.

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Rev. William McCrea : Bearing in mind the number of guilty persons roaming about in safety and comfort in the Irish Republic because the Dublin Government will not take the necessary steps to extradite known terrorists to the United Kingdom and the fact that there is alarm and concern at the imprisonment in the United Kingdom of four innocent persons--the UDR four from Armagh--when will action be taken to provide proper extradition proceedings between the United Kingdom and Dublin and to allow the four innocent men from Armagh to be released?

Mr. Cope : We are constantly promised new evidence on the so-called UDR four, but so far we have not received any that would allow the case to be sent back to the courts and we shall not impose a political judgment on the sentence of the courts. Since January 1988, 14 people have been returned to the United Kingdom, orders for delivery in respect of a further six people are the subject of appeal proceedings before the Irish courts and the Irish state has successfully appealed against the decision of the district court not to order the return of a further two persons. Therefore, a number of terrorist and non-terrorist cases are still pending.

Transport Infrastructure

3. Mr. Clifford Forsythe : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has to improve Northern Ireland's transport infrastructure.

Mr. Peter Bottomley : The proposals are in Northern Ireland's transportation programme, 1989-1993, presented last September to the European Commission.

Mr. Forsythe : Will the Minister explain why his Department has not yet taken action on Northern Ireland Railways' urgent request in August 1989 for authority to fit automatic half-barriers to 11 open crossings? Is he aware that those crossings include the one at Slaght, the scene of a fatal accident in March this year, and Umbra, the scene of a near accident last month? Will he urgently introduce that legislation and alert road users by publicly listing those 11 crossings?

Mr. Bottomley : I shall do what the hon. Gentleman asked at the end of his question. I should like to make sure that the Department and all others concerned provide all the evidence to the inquiry into the Slaght tragedy before we start giving out evidence across the Floor of the House. All of it will be made public.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton : Does my hon. Friend accept that an important part of the improvement to Northern Ireland's transport infrastructure would be an improvement in British Rail's infrastructure from the channel tunnel to the land-sea link to Northern Ireland? What representations is my hon. Friend making to his colleagues in the Department of Transport and to British Rail to ensure that Northern Ireland can take full advantage of the channel tunnel when it is open?

Mr. Bottomley : We work closely with the Department of Transport. Most of the links to Northern Ireland will also bring improved services to my hon. Friend's constituency.

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Anglo-Irish Agreement

4. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what further discussions he has had about the Anglo-Irish Agreement ; and if he will make a statement.

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Brooke) : Both the United Kingdom and the Irish Governments remain committed to the Anglo-Irish Agreement, which provides a valuable framework within which they can discuss issues of mutual interest and concern. However, in the context of any discussions on possible future arrangements for the government of Northern Ireland, I would give serious consideration to any implications for the agreement that such arrangements might have.

Mr. Skinner : Is not the truth of the matter that the Anglo-Irish Agreement, which was brought in before the previous general election, has turned out to be nothing more than a house of cards? The Government, along with some others, are trying to find another type of superstructure before the next general election, as many Governments have done for the past 20 years. If the Government and other parties can cheer the collapse of the Berlin wall, it is high time that we got rid of the border and brought out the British troops.

Mr. Brooke : As I remarked at a previous Question Time, the views expressed in the last part of the hon. Gentleman's question do not enjoy widespread support in the House.

Mr. Gow : Is my right hon. Friend beginning to understand that whose who are best able to represent nationalists in Northern Ireland are those who have been elected as their representatives to this House rather than the Government of that only foreign power whose constitution lays claim to Northern Ireland?

Mr. Brooke : In answer to the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), I gave the Government's attitude to the Anglo-Irish Agreement. I am sure that I am joined by the rest of the House in paying tribute to those in the House who represent the nationalist community in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Maginnis : Since the Dublin Supreme Court has found in the case of McGimpsey and McGimpsey v. Ireland that the Anglo-Irish Agreement is complementary to the territorial claim enshrined in articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution, is the Secretary of State surprised to discover that the Dublin Government have vetoed his political initiative? Is not it the case that the Irish Republic has a constitutional imperative to be obstructive when there is any chance of acknowledging that Ulster Unionists should have a right or rights?

Mr. Brooke : No one has vetoed the initiative on which we are engaged, although I acknowledge that it is within the power of anybody to slow progress. It was said of the great cricketer, Denis Compton, that when he called someone for a run it was not so much an instruction as the opening of negotiations. In order to secure the opening of negotiations, it is not within my power simply to give an instruction.

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Disabled Pupils

5. Mr. Bowis : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many (a) primary schools and (b) secondary schools have wheelchair access for disabled pupils.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr. Brian Mawhinney) : Schools designed for disabled pupils include38 primary and 22 secondary special units and 46 special schools, which cover both primary and secondary age groups. Specific adaptations for disabled pupils have also been made at 62 other primary and 29 secondary schools. Many other schools, especially primary schools, are accessible without adaptations.

Mr. Bowis : Does my hon. Friend agree that it is good news for children with disabilities and their parents that many more such children are able to participate in mainstream schools? However, they are able to participate in mainstream education only if they have the same choice as other children. That choice often depends on adequate staffing and therapy levels and, of course, on adequate physical access. Too many schools, particularly secondary schools, are not yet able to provide that true choice of education.

Dr. Mawhinney : I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I am sure that what he said in the first part of his question will be widely accepted. I certainly accept it. It is important that children with a disability have a degree of choice and educational excellence. As far as is possible within Northern Ireland, we try to ensure that that choice is available, especially in the secondary sector.

Rev. Martin Smyth : Does the Minister accept that many schools still have not made the necessary adaptations, so that we are simply conning ourselves when we speak of parental choice? Is not that choice severely limited not only because of a lack of access to the schools, but because of a lack of proper access to classrooms within the schools?

Dr. Mawhinney : I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. It is important that as great a choice as possible should be available, and we are agreed on that. I cannot recall any instances of concern about secondary schools being expressed to me, although I accept that there tends to be more difficulty with secondary than with primary schools. If the hon. Gentleman would like to bring specific instances to my attention, I should be happy to hear from him. Given the concern that he has expressed, I shall certainly make appropriate inquiries.

Political Parties (Discussions)

6. Mr. Andrew MacKay : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on his recent discussions with political parties in the Province.

Mr. Brooke : During the past six months I have had a series of discussions with the political parties in Northern Ireland and with representatives of the Irish Government, each of which accepts that talks would need to address, as part of the process, internal arrangements, north -south and east-west relations. The constructive approach taken by everyone has produced a large measure of agreement

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about the various preliminary points of principle and also about the structure, format, and timing any talks might have.

It is, of course, for the other potential participants in the talks to assess the best interests of those whom they represent. However, given the potential benefits of political dialogue, my judgment is that, with continuing goodwill, the outstanding matters that divide them could be resolved so that talks could be announced. I am ready to continue my efforts to facilitate the process, but such an announcement clearly cannot yet be made.

Mr. MacKay : Is my right hon. Friend aware that the whole House wishes him godspeed in those delicate negotiations? Does he agree that the political leaders of the various constitutional parties in the Province have shown exemplary restraint during the past few weeks while negotiations have been taking place? It must have been difficult for them in their constituencies and elsewhere. It is an encouraging development, and we should wish them well.

Mr. Brooke : I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for the sentiments that he expressed at the beginning of his question. I concur with him in praising the restraint that everyone has shown during the past fortnight in ensuring that the possibility of talks remains and can be advanced.

Mr. Ashdown : Notwithstanding the question and the answer, with whose sentiments I agree, did the Secretary of State note the comments of Bishop Cahal Daly at the funeral of yet another young sectarian murder victim yesterday? He said that those who would put obstacles in the way of the talks initiative would be letting the people down. Would not those who would put obstacles in the way of the talks bear a heavy responsibility if those talks were to fail?

Mr. Brooke : I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the nature of his question. I would not wholly concur with Bishop Cahal Daly-- although I am grateful for his comments--about being able to embark on such talks without conditions, because I think that there are perfectly understandable conditions that everyone would bring to the talks. The fact that the bishop expressed that thought is a vivid index of the desire in Northern Ireland for talks to begin.

Mr. Peter Robinson : Does the Secretary of State accept that if agreement were reached on the subject matters that he has listed to the House, in effect it would be a new agreement that would replace the Anglo- Irish Agreement? Has progress been made since he last spoke to the House, and do those with whom he has spoken since then share his view that the gap has narrowed?

Mr. Brooke : Obviously, in the fortnight since I last addressed the House on the matter, talks with several parties have continued for a fairly long time. The gap has been narrowed, which gives one encouragement in persisting in the task, but there is still a gap.

Mr. Mallon : Does the Secretary of State agree that all those involved in discussions over a long period of time, like the right hon. Gentleman himself, have also shown great restraint and have been consistently constructive? Does he agree that political parties in Northern Ireland are under enormous pressure and that such restraint augurs well for the future? Before he considers camping on the

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racecourse, he should realise that a weekend is a short time in Northern Irish politics and that every last effort must be made to ensure that proper discussions and negotiations begin as soon as possible.

Mr. Brooke : I join the hon. Gentleman in endorsing the restraint and the confidentiality that have been shown throughout the negotiations, which demonstrate the desire of the parties to make progress. The hon. Gentleman asked about camping on the racecourse. That metaphor was constructed for a particular purpose, and every time I reflect on it I am struck by what a dangerous process it would be. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman can be assured that we should want to take every step before doing that.

Mr. Stanbrook : Was not my right hon. Friend's honest initiative doomed from the moment the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic insisted that the Irish Republic should be consulted at every stage of the negotiations? Was not the Anglo-Irish Agreement the biggest mistake the Government have ever made? Why should a foreign state have a say in the government of Her Majesty's subjects?

Mr. Brooke : I should not want in any way to amend my hon. Friend's question, but he was slightly tempting providence in calibrating the scale of the mistake that might have been made. The involvement of the Irish Government in internal talks has not been an issue between the two Governments. As I told the House during the debate on the renewal of powers, the Irish Government have acknowledged that they would not be directly involved in any inter-party talks about internal arrangements for the government of Northern Ireland. However, there is general recognition that any comprehensive political accommodation must emerge from a process of dialogue involving all the main constitutional parties in Northern Ireland and the British and Irish Governments.

Mr. John D. Taylor : As the Anglo-Irish Agreement gave a veto to many parties including the Dublin Government, and as it now appears that that veto is being exercised, will the Secretary of State consider those matters of reform and progress in Northern Ireland that are not connected with the Anglo-Irish Agreement, such as giving British Members of Parliament for Northern Ireland the same rights as English, Welsh and Scottish Members, and reforming the system of local government in Northern Ireland or, as a cricketing fan does he prefer to spend the entire summer at Malahide and the Mardyke?

Mr. Brooke : I understand the subjects that the right hon. Gentleman raises. The Government have agreed that they should be happy to consider them and to discuss them with Opposition Members. However, it would be preferable to consider such issues as elements in an overall accommodation rather than reviewing them in isolation.

Sir Michael McNair-Wilson : Will my right hon. Friend confirm that it is up to the House and the political parties in Northern Ireland to decide what is the best form of devolved local administration for that sovereign part of the United Kingdom that we call Northern Ireland and that whether we choose to consult the Government in Dublin is a matter for us and not for that Government?

Mr. Brooke : I hope that I gave my hon. Friend some reassurance in the answer that I gave a moment ago. The scope of the discussions that we now envisage would go

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beyond the present agreement. It is generally acknowledged that any comprehensive political accommodation must address all aspects of the problem and involve all those concerned.

Mr. McNamara : In his initial answer the Secretary of State did not talk about making a statement before the House rises. Although we respect the right hon. Gentleman's desire to make a statement to the House--I wish that many of his colleagues would do so more frequently--if he feels that it would be in the best interests of the talks and negotiations that are taking place that a statement should not be made to the House, I am sure, speaking for the Labour party and, I think, for the whole House, that we would rather he made progress than that we should insist on any sort of statement.

Mr. Brooke : I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the constructiveness that underlies his question.

Rev. Ian Paisley : Lest what the Secretary of State has said today at the Dispatch Box should be misunderstood, will he confirm that he stands by what he wrote to the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr. Molyneaux), my colleague across the way, and myself : that the Government are prepared to consider an alternative to and a replacement of the Anglo-Irish Agreement?

Mr. Brooke : I gladly repeat the words that I uttered earlier this afternoon : that in the context of any discussions on possible future arrangements for the government of Northern Ireland, I would give serious consideration to any implications for the agreement which such arrangements might have. The hon. Gentleman will know that the Taoiseach and the Irish Government have expressed a similar view.

Eastern and Northern Healthand Social Services Boards

7. Mr. Beggs : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what consideration has been given by the Department of Health and Social Services in Northern Ireland to the merits of rationalisation of hospital provision between the Eastern and Northern health and social services boards ; and if he will make a statement.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Richard Needham) : The precise pattern of services in each areais a matter for each board to decide in consultation with other boards, as required. Any major changes or closures are likely to require the approval of the Department of Health and Social Services.

Mr. Beggs : I thank the Minister for his reply. Does he accept that the working group set up by the Northern health and social services board to examine the Moyle hospital report on the case for the retention and development of acute services at Larne does not inspire confidence that an impartial assessment will be made? Is the Minister aware that the four officers who have been appointed are too closely associated with promoting the board's own policy, which will never be accepted in Ireland? Can the Minister assure the House that this Department will seriously consider this new report and that an enlarged group will be set up that is competent to deal with the issue of cross-board rationalisation? Will he

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also reassure us that justice will be done to this report, which has been professionally researched and presented, when it is examined?

Mr. Needham : As the hon. Gentleman knows, my noble Friend the Under -Secretary of State has written to those who produced the report and told them that he will look carefully at its contents. He has also made it clear that any rationalisation proposals for acute care will clearly have cross- board dimensions and that they will have to be taken into acount by the boards working together. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman's point will be taken into account by my noble Friend.

Mr. Kilfedder : I am deeply concerned about the drastic cuts that have been imposed by the Eastern health board. Will the Minister set up a review into the effects that the cuts are having on the hospital and caring services in North Down?

Mr. Needham : Since I have been a Northern Ireland Minister the amount of money spent on health care has risen from about £650 million a year to over £1 billion--hardly a cut. As for the particular point that the hon. Gentleman made, I shall draw it to the attention of my noble Friend.

Mr. Jim Marshall : The Minister must be aware, however, that public disquiet continues over the proposal to downgrade Moyle hospital to the level of a community hospital, and of the strong belief locally that if that plan is eventually carried out it could involve loss of life in the area. In view of that disquiet, cannot the Minister give a firmer guarantee that he and his ministerial colleagues will review the decision in the near future?

Mr. Needham : What will lead to loss of life in an acute hospital is that it is not properly staffed and does not have the right amount of equipment. Small local acute hospitals find it increasingly difficult to take on and retain the right staff and afford the right equipment. The key point about rationalisation is to ensure that we have modern acute facilities, led by the best doctors and nurses to look after our people. That is what we are doing by building the new Antrim hospital at a cost of £30 million.

Drainage Council

8. Mr. Mallon : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he last met the Drainage Council for Northern Ireland ; and what matters concerning the constituency of Newry and Armagh were discussed.

Mr. Peter Bottomley : Last month the council determined that Camlough lake feeder drain No. 2 should be treated as designated. It accepted the drainage scheme recommended by the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. Mallon : May I commend the Minister on having obtained a positive response to a problem that has existed for upwards of 40 years? I assure him that those whose agricultural land has been affected by the problem will welcome it and that it will also be welcomed by the roads executive which has spent almost £500,000 making good the damage done? Will the Minister pursue the work quickly and vigorously so that the harm can be undone before the turn of the days?

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Mr. Bottomley : Yes, Sir. May I take this opportunity of making the broader point that we do not intend to become involved in more major agricultural drainage schemes because of the environmental impact. We want to maintain the courses that have been designated so that we can avoid the high cost to the roads service, referred to by the hon. Gentleman, and some of the consequences to agriculture. We will always consider the cost- benefit analysis and the environmental impact.

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